jpd80 Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) Ok, you have the solutions, so what you have that work? (The XTS sold the least last month, so it isn't because people want that type of car). I never said I had the solutions, simply pointing out the error of investing so heavily in cars that were clearly copies of BMWs. I suspect that XTS sales collapsed in line with Cadillac's reduced livery sales - that was after all why it was kept around..... .I'm sure that Cadillac has Billions to invest in yet more cars with new improved badge names and prove us all wrong.... Edited August 8, 2017 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grbeck Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) Cadillac has been trying to peddle imitation BMWs - initially priced at the same level as the Real Thing. That simply won't work, as long as people can buy the Real Thing for the same price. The BMW badge has more cachet than the Cadillac badge. If Cadillac had tried to undercut BMW on price, it might have succeeded. But I'm guessing that the business case for the ATS and CTS wouldn't have worked at those price levels. Edited August 8, 2017 by grbeck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Cadillac has been trying to peddle imitation BMWs - initially priced at the same level as the Real Thing. That simply won't work, as long as people can buy the Real Thing for the same price. The BMW badge has more cachet than the Cadillac badge. If Cadillac had tried to undercut BMW on price, it might have succeeded. But I'm guessing that the business case for the ATS and CTS wouldn't have worked at those price levels. This is true and it has nothing to do with how well the vehicles are engineered. It has to do with why people buy BMWs and the types of buyers that would consider buying a Cadillac in the first place. Lincoln has done a better job of matching sedans and crossovers to what their customers want to buy while GM has done a better job with full sized utilities. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) .DP Edited August 8, 2017 by Fgts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 I never said I had the solutions, simply pointing out the error of investing so heavily in cars that were clearly copies of BMWs. When Jag, Alpha, Lexus, Infiniti and Genesis do this it's competition but Caddy dose it it's a "copy". .I'm sure that Cadillac has Billions to invest in yet more cars with new improved badge names and prove us all wrong.... Yep, they'll switch the badges with no other improvements...... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) When Jag, Alpha, Lexus, Infiniti and Genesis do this it's competition but Caddy dose it it's a "copy". I don't recall those brands coming out with 2 brand new sedans and a coupe and calling them "BMW-fighters"..... And where they have done it on an individual vehicle they were always called out for it. BTW the issue isn't whether they were trying to copy BMW or not - it's whether their customers want to buy such a vehicle and clearly with ATS/CTS the answer was no. Edited August 8, 2017 by akirby 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 I don't recall those brands coming out with 2 brand new sedans and a coupe and calling them "BMW-fighters"..... And where they have done it on an individual vehicle they were always called out for it. BTW the issue isn't whether they were trying to copy BMW or not - it's whether their customers want to buy such a vehicle and clearly with ATS/CTS the answer was no. Agreed. Actually, Infiniti also tried to copy BMW with their sedans, and Infiniti is a weak brand as well. Jag and Alfa always had a sporty or racing heritage, so if anything BMW was the one to copy them decades ago. Genesis and Lexus, if anything fill the spot of what Cadillac and Lincoln used to be (luxury and comfort first) Genesis will have a tough time as they are only building sedans in a rapidly changing market and their CUVs ae still being designed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Genesis and Lexus, if anything fill the spot of what Cadillac and Lincoln used to be (luxury and comfort first) Genesis will have a tough time as they are only building sedans in a rapidly changing market and their CUVs ae still being designed. Genesis is in a worse spot then Acura or even Lincoln right now. Its going to take 10-20 years before anyone takes them seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Genesis is in a worse spot then Acura or even Lincoln right now. Its going to take 10-20 years before anyone takes them seriously. I wouldn't underestimate them. The key is developing C/SUVs, but almost all the (modern) Hyundai owners I know love them, many of them switched to Hyundai for their second vehicle as well. As Hyundai owners get older/wealthier I don't think it's a big stretch seeing them grow into Genesis the way many Toyota buyers grew into Lexus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted August 9, 2017 Author Share Posted August 9, 2017 Genesis is in a worse spot then Acura or even Lincoln right now. Its going to take 10-20 years before anyone takes them seriously. I wouldn't underestimate them. The key is developing C/SUVs, but almost all the (modern) Hyundai owners I know love them, many of them switched to Hyundai for their second vehicle as well. As Hyundai owners get older/wealthier I don't think it's a big stretch seeing them grow into Genesis the way many Toyota buyers grew into Lexus. I think part of their problem was badging it a "Hyundai Genesis" first. Then when they transitioned to making it a brand, everyone associates it with Hyundai automatically. Not to say they wouldn't have if it were always a Genesis-branded model, but it'd be a less evident connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Genesis is in a worse spot then Acura or even Lincoln right now. Its going to take 10-20 years before anyone takes them seriously. This is sales from July... I think you may be under estimating the Genesis brand. E-class 3,876 -25.8% 5 series 3,713 +12.4% G80 1,339 A6 1,218 -33% Continental 958 S90 955 +230.1% CTS 786 -40.15% GS 652 -44.3% XTS 541 -41.6% Q70 375 -26% G90 305 RLX 64 -37.2% I don't necessary think it will take as long as you think for Genesis to be taken seriously. They've done a really good job so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 (edited) Genesis is in a worse spot then Acura or even Lincoln right now. Its going to take 10-20 years before anyone takes them seriously. I certainly wouldn't underestimate them. Hyundai/Kia have made great strides in a short amount of time. I think it's fair to say that they are no longer considered a bottom feeder anymore. I see plenty of Hyundais in well to do areas. Their warranty certainly doesn't hurt their appeal either regardless whether car enthusiasts view a long warranty as a negative attribute. Edited August 9, 2017 by tbone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Hyundai and to a lesser degree Kia are doing well as a mainstream brand. But even established brands have a hard time cracking the luxury market. <cough> VW phaeton <cough>. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2b2 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 (edited) This is sales from July... I think you may be under estimating the Genesis brand. E-class 3,876 -25.8% 5 series 3,713 +12.4% G80 1,339 A6 1,218 -33% Continental 958 S90 955 +230.1% CTS 786 -40.15% GS 652 -44.3% XTS 541 -41.6% Q70 375 -26% G90 305 RLX 64 -37.2% I don't necessary think it will take as long as you think for Genesis to be taken seriously. They've done a really good job so far. swiped^ but need to point out the MB # is for both E-clash +AND+ CLS Edited August 9, 2017 by 2b2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted August 9, 2017 Author Share Posted August 9, 2017 swiped^ but need to point out the MB # is for both E-clash +AND+ CLS I've never understood how/why they combined E and CLS when they're clearly completely different models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Hyundai and to a lesser degree Kia are doing well as a mainstream brand. But even established brands have a hard time cracking the luxury market. <cough> VW phaeton <cough>. The issue with the Phaeton, was that Audi would have been a better brand for that product, but they placed a 75,000-100,000 dollar car in a lineup where the model below was selling for 50,000 tops with no ladder rungs leading to that. I think any mainstream brand can sell luxury as long as it is a good CUV/SUV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 I've never understood how/why they combined E and CLS when they're clearly completely different models. Because they decided to combine GLC and GLC coupe, and GLE and GLE coupe. So trying to stay internally consistent. CLS is E-class coupe so ergo they are combined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted August 10, 2017 Author Share Posted August 10, 2017 Because they decided to combine GLC and GLC coupe, and GLE and GLE coupe. So trying to stay internally consistent. CLS is E-class coupe so ergo they are combined. Eh, that's a stretch to me. The GLE and GLC coupes at least share everything except the rear roof sections/rear ends. The CLS doesn't share anything aside from a platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 CLS is E-class coupe so ergo they are combined. Huh? CLS is a 4 door. E-Class has its own coupe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Hyundai and to a lesser degree Kia are doing well as a mainstream brand. But even established brands have a hard time cracking the luxury market. <cough> VW phaeton <cough>. I don't disagree with you. Genesis would never be successful with Hyundai attached to it's name as a luxury brand. However, since they finally listened to me and spit it into its own brand, it has a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Genesis is one of my favorite bands. I don't get all this talk of not succeeding. Oh wait wrong Genesis, carry on.... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Especially when G80 and G90 are selling in similar volumes as Cadillac's cars...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 I don't disagree with you. Genesis would never be successful with Hyundai attached to it's name as a luxury brand. However, since they finally listened to me and spit it into its own brand, it has a shot. They have 2 sedans and they're still being sold at Hyundai dealerships. I think it will be successful as a step up brand for Hyundai and Kia owners much like Lincoln and Cadillac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) And it's the same result being seen with RWD cars at Cadillac, a lot smaller numbers than enthusiasts think. I'm not against them, more that I don't think they are reaching the target audience effectively. Edited August 10, 2017 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted August 10, 2017 Author Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) And it's the same result being seen with RWD cars at Cadillac, a lot smaller numbers than enthusiasts think. I'm not against them, more that I don't think they are reaching the target audience effectively. Cheap plastic interior door handles that feel like they'll snap off in a few months in both models doesn't help my impression of them. They certainly have some nice attributes, but those door handles are inexcusable on what are supposed to be luxury vehicles. Edited August 10, 2017 by rmc523 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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