Ford changing co-developed GM 9-speed into an 8-speed?

[rmc523]

http://www.autonews.com/article/20170522/OEM01/170519722/ford-to-build-an-8-speed-transmission-in-michigan

 

 

 

The gearbox Ford Motor Co. is spending $350 million to add to its Livonia transmission plant in suburban Detroit will be a front-wheel-drive eight-speed, according to an internal company memo obtained by Automotive News.

 

The memo, dated last June, said the eight-speed will begin production in October.

 

The transmission is based on the nine-speed developed with General Motors, according to a source with knowledge of the company's plans. Ford removed a gear to save on costs and improve performance, said the source, who requested anonymity discussing internal plans.

 

Is this true? Sounds ridiculous......unless it's related to how much power the EcoBoost engines have vs. GM motors? Weren't we hearing rumors about Ford not liking the durability of the GM 9-speed? It would also explain the delay.

Edited May 23, 2017 by rmc523

[fuzzymoomoo]

Hasn't GM had reliability issues with the 9-speed in the Malibu or am I mistaken?

[rmc523]

Hasn't GM had reliability issues with the 9-speed in the Malibu or am I mistaken?

 

I remember reading something about durability/reliability issues with the 9-speed. But does that necessitate redesigning it to be an 8-speed?

[blazerdude20]

If there are concerns on reliability, removing one gear could help. If the overall component dimension area remains the same you could beef up the other gears. Potentially overcoming a design fault.

 

Wonder if this will be the last GM/FORD co-development? The 6F transmission had some significant teething issues the first year or two.

Edited May 23, 2017 by blazerdude20

[rperez817]

Hasn't GM had reliability issues with the 9-speed in the Malibu or am I mistaken?

 

The GM 9T50 transmission in 2017 Malibu has been pretty good in terms of performance and initial reliability according to Motor Trend. http://www.motortrend.com/news/2017-chevrolet-malibu-2-0t-quick-spin-experiencing-chevys-nine-speed-automatic/. Only the Malibu Premier 2.0T comes with it so getting more detailed reliability data will take some time.

 

The 9-speed ZF 9HP transmission used by FCA, JLR, and Honda had a lot of problems. ZF issued a recall last year. http://blog.caranddriver.com/zf-recalls-nine-speed-automatic-for-random-drops-into-neutral/

Edited May 23, 2017 by rperez817

[jpd80]

If there are concerns on reliability, removing one gear could help. If the overall component dimension area remains the same you could beef up the other gears. Potentially overcoming a design fault.

 

Wonder if this will be the last GM/FORD co-development? The 6F transmission had some significant teething issues the first year or two.

Perhaps the priority is switching out the 6F for a the lower cost volume 8F trans with the 9F to be a later progression?

Ford's wider use of Ecoboost may mean that the 8-speed auto is all they need for now and the 9-speed may be

a baked in incremental step for high series vehicles.

Edited May 23, 2017 by jpd80

[fuzzymoomoo]

Or maybe the Ecoboost engines get the 8 speed and the 9 speed comes later for the NA engines?

 

Just thinking out loud

[rmc523]

Perhaps the priority is switching out the 6F for a the lower cost volume 8F trans with the 9F to be a later progression?

Ford's wider use of Ecoboost may mean that the 8-speed auto is all they need for now and the 9-speed may be

a baked in incremental step for high series vehicles.

 

But why develop both? And not just skip straight to 9-speeds? Seems like it would cost more to co-develop a 9-speed with GM, just to then turn around and turn it into an 8-speed, to then go to a 9-speed in a couple of years?

[brucelinc]

The ratios and ratio spread on the 9 speed are ridiculous, unnecessary and counter productive for flat torque curve engines like twin turbo V6s. At the very least, they need to make some tweaks as well as make it more robust.

[rmc523]

The ratios and ratio spread on the 9 speed are ridiculous, unnecessary and counter productive for flat torque curve engines like twin turbo V6s. At the very least, they need to make some tweaks as well as make it more robust.

 

So in other words, it could be related to the power the EcoBoost motors make.

[jasonj80]

Issue becomes if your competitor has a 9 speed to the average car buying public that is automatically better than the 8 speed Ford is offering. It's really to bad that Ford torpedoed the CVT for small vehicles it really is the best transmission. The latest ones form Honda/Subaru/Nissan are actually nice to drive in smaller cars, they also return crazy mpg.

[silvrsvt]

 

So in other words, it could be related to the power the EcoBoost motors make.

 

But that shouldn't be really an issue? The 6F already handles it?

[Joe771476]

What's the big deal with a 9-speed tranny? Fuel mileage? Heck, My wife leased a 1996 Sentra 5 speed overdrive (Nissan paid the property taxes!) and I could get 52 MPG highway with it! Who needs hybrids? I rented a 2017 Fusion for a week (cause my 2001 Taurus tranny crapped out after 250,000 miles and I did not have it repaired) and I could get 47 MPG at best and hybrids get better mileage on secondary roads than on the highway by the way. Other times I'd get 38 MPG. I could eke out 31 MPG with that 2001 Taurus V6 and also got 31 MPG with an 85 Cadillac 4.1 L V8 that I inherited ( I never would have bought one). Both scenarios were a 20-mile stretch of secondary road with 45 MPH speed limit and traffic lights spaced 2 to 5 miles apart. I know when they're going to turn red and green and have never stopped DEAD at a traffic light on this road in years on my way to work. Yeah I know it sounds ridiculous but it's also the reason why I get 150,000 miles on a set of brakes. Do you know how much brake wear you incur bringing a 2 ton vehicle to a DEAD stop and then how much fuel you use bringing it up to speed from a DEAD stop? By the way, some people have to bring their car to 50 MPH in less than 1/4 mile or they're not happy, while I take 3/4 mile. I also use some other tricks (some unconventional) to further increase my fuel mileage and no, I don't draft trailer trucks! Here's two real simple ones: 1) Back into parking stalls (it's safer backing between 2 stationary cars than backing into moving traffic) or better yet pull through to the next one so you're facing out. It'll take you less time (=less fuel) creeping out of the stall to see if a car is coming and like i said, it's safer also. 2) Buckle your seatbelt BEFORE you start the engine, not while you're still idling/not moving.

[brucelinc]

My understanding is that the current GM version (9T50) has the same torque handling capability as the 6F50 but less than the 6F55 used in the twin turbo engines. Of course there could be a stronger version under development.

[MY93SHO]

What's the big deal with a 9-speed tranny? Fuel mileage? Heck, My wife leased a 1996 Sentra 5 speed overdrive (Nissan paid the property taxes!) and I could get 52 MPG highway with it! Who needs hybrids? I rented a 2017 Fusion for a week (cause my 2001 Taurus tranny crapped out after 250,000 miles and I did not have it repaired) and I could get 47 MPG at best and hybrids get better mileage on secondary roads than on the highway by the way. Other times I'd get 38 MPG. I could eke out 31 MPG with that 2001 Taurus V6 and also got 31 MPG with an 85 Cadillac 4.1 L V8 that I inherited ( I never would have bought one). Both scenarios were a 20-mile stretch of secondary road with 45 MPH speed limit and traffic lights spaced 2 to 5 miles apart. I know when they're going to turn red and green and have never stopped DEAD at a traffic light on this road in years on my way to work. Yeah I know it sounds ridiculous but it's also the reason why I get 150,000 miles on a set of brakes. Do you know how much brake wear you incur bringing a 2 ton vehicle to a DEAD stop and then how much fuel you use bringing it up to speed from a DEAD stop? By the way, some people have to bring their car to 50 MPH in less than 1/4 mile or they're not happy, while I take 3/4 mile. I also use some other tricks (some unconventional) to further increase my fuel mileage and no, I don't draft trailer trucks! Here's two real simple ones: 1) Back into parking stalls (it's safer backing between 2 stationary cars than backing into moving traffic) or better yet pull through to the next one so you're facing out. It'll take you less time (=less fuel) creeping out of the stall to see if a car is coming and like i said, it's safer also. 2) Buckle your seatbelt BEFORE you start the engine, not while you're still idling/not moving.

 

1996? Now bring that empty beer can up to 2018 compliance, bye bye 52 mpg.

 

"By the way, some people have to bring their car to 50 MPH in less than 1/4 mile or they're not happy, while I take 3/4 mile."

 

So you're the a-hole in front of me!

[fordmantpw]

Maybe 9 speeds is the point of diminishing returns for a FWD transmission? If 8 gives you better performance (and likely equal or better fuel economy), why bother with the 9 speed? I would imagine they just took a gear out from the middle somewhere it wasn't needed.

[akirby]

I think BMW, Mercedes and others use 8 so I don't see the big deal. 9 and 10 seem like overkill (but the trucks can use the extra overdrive gears to compensate for numerically higher axle ratios and towing.

[Trader 10]

Like everyone else commenting on this topic, I'm going to assume the report of 8 speeds vs. 9 is factual. I'm not sure how one less gear would improve performance as the source indicated but it does make sense that an 8 speed would be cheaper to build than a 9speed and cost is always a consideration. The change to one less gear would explain the long development time vs. GM. The article mentioned that production would start in October so at least one 2018 Ford/Lincoln should get it.

[twintornados]

8....9.....whatever it takes.

[bzcat]

I don't think 8 or 9 matters as long as it delivers the best EPA result (this is after all, what matters) while achieving the desired durability target.

[mettech]

CVT people NEVER have a debate about how many gears they have or don't have..

[jasonj80]

I think BMW, Mercedes and others use 8 so I don't see the big deal. 9 and 10 seem like overkill (but the trucks can use the extra overdrive gears to compensate for numerically higher axle ratios and towing.

Mercedes is 7 or 9. BMW/Audi use the ZF 8speed and Lexus uses a 10speed and 8speeds.

[jpd80]

 

But why develop both? And not just skip straight to 9-speeds? Seems like it would cost more to co-develop a 9-speed with GM, just to then turn around and turn it into an 8-speed, to then go to a 9-speed in a couple of years?

The 8AT was an evolution on the corporate 6AT and word is that the 9AT was a further evolution.

It could be that for now, Ford is replacing the 6F with an 8F with promise of a 9F a little later?

Edited May 24, 2017 by jpd80

[twintornados]

CVT people NEVER have a debate about how many gears they have or don't have..

.

The only conversation "CVT people" have is, "Does this belt make me look fat?"

[brucelinc]

I hope this is factual. The current GM 9 speed is probably just fine for lower powered vehicles but I think the ratios are really out of whack for the twin turbo V6s that have massive low end torque and a flat torque curve.

 

For example, at WOT the 3.0 Continental with the 6 speed reaches 32, 50 and 78 MPH in gears 1-3. It NEVER falls under the torque peak during that time. The ratios are 4.48, 2.87 and 1.84. The GM 9 speed first 3 ratios are 4.69, 3.31 and 3.01. The first two are lower than necessary (high numerically) for an engine that makes 400 Lb/ft of torque at 2750 RPM and 3rd is too close to 2nd to be useful. 3rd would only be worth around 10 more MPH at WOT vs 2nd. I do like that the 9 speed has two overdrive ratios - .75 and .62. The .62 ratio would definitely help highway mileage vs the .74 used in the current 6 speed.

 

Logic would say that more ratios help acceleration due to keeping the engine in its most favorable RPM range. That is very true on most naturally aspirated engines or those that develop their power at higher RPM. I am sure the 10 speed will help the Coyote Mustang since that engine lacks low end torque and is a high revver. However, the twin turbo engines are low revving, high torque engines and additional shifts can be more of a detriment than a benefit. Every manufacturer uses some torque management to make the shifts smoother by cutting power at the shift point. Fewer shifts can actually result in better performance in many cases. While totally unrelated to passenger cars, the preferred transmission for high powered modified street cars at the drag strip is the 2 speed Powerglide!