SoonerLS Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 IMO It would be stupid to have the Model E or whatever they are calling it separate from the Focus platform, since they completely overlap one another. I dunno--the needs of an electrified powertrain are different from those of a conventional powertrain, so if you're designing from the ground up for an electrified powertrain, why would you saddle it with compromises to accommodate a conventional powertrain (and vice versa)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 I don't follow the logic oo assumption that every mule is a new platform, i like to take counterpoint of what if this is an easy extension of something already in play... everyone is just assuming that the larger Mule has to be a new platform, from what we know of Ford, "new platform" can be whatever they decide. as in MKC.. so what you're saying is the 2019 focus is the 2008 focus again, with a new platform coming in 2 years. The way C-cars sell these days that kind of investment is asinine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 I don't follow the logic oo assumption that every mule is a new platform, i like to take counterpoint of what if this is an easy extension of something already in play... everyone is just assuming that the larger Mule has to be a new platform, from what we know of Ford, "new platform" can be whatever they decide. as in MKC.. Even if it's not an "all new" platform (which doesn't line up with anything except this one article that's trying to imply they'll replace a model and then replace it again a year later on a new platform), at the very least, everything aside from the platform (body, etc) looks to be all new.......and as I pointed out above, the stance and proportions of the mule point to a completely new vehicle, so there's no way it's just an MCE. I dunno--the needs of an electrified powertrain are different from those of a conventional powertrain, so if you're designing from the ground up for an electrified powertrain, why would you saddle it with compromises to accommodate a conventional powertrain (and vice versa)? I think his point is more that if you're going to be developing a new electric platform, and at the same time a new c-car platform, that you would share as much as possible between the two to keep costs down. Obviously an electric vehicle has different needs, but you'd still share as much as you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 I dunno--the needs of an electrified powertrain are different from those of a conventional powertrain, so if you're designing from the ground up for an electrified powertrain, why would you saddle it with compromises to accommodate a conventional powertrain (and vice versa)? Thats the million dollar question...looking at Chevy...the Bolt is a shared platform, but the Volt is not, but only a B platform. Biggest issue is battery packaging on a hybrid/electric car vs a gas powered one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 so what you're saying is the 2019 focus is the 2008 focus again, with a new platform coming in 2 years. The way C-cars sell these days that kind of investment is asinine. Also keep in mind that the current Focus platform dates back to 2005 or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Remember that Ford is in the process of reducing its global platforms. From a Raj Nair interview (last year, Detroit Free Press), “From the product development side, future vehicles will be developed with batteries and electric motors in mind. "All platforms will be capable of both gasoline and electric vehicles," Nair said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Also keep in mind that the current Focus platform dates back to 2005 or so. you missed my point. Point is that the 2012 Focus was "all new" despite being on the same platform, as was the 2008 Focus. At this point investing in the same platform for another "all new" model just to replace it with a new platform in 2 years with the way small cars are trending is ridiculous It's easy to justify in 2007 when gas was on the rise and cheap cars were in demand because of economic factors, and again in 2011 when gas was at its peak and the industry was on a massive upswing. Very difficult to justify that now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 you missed my point. Point is that the 2012 Focus was "all new" despite being on the same platform, as was the 2008 Focus. At this point investing in the same platform for another "all new" model just to replace it with a new platform in 2 years with the way small cars are trending is ridiculous It's easy to justify in 2007 when gas was on the rise and cheap cars were in demand because of economic factors, and again in 2011 when gas was at its peak and the industry was on a massive upswing. Very difficult to justify that now. I was trying to support your point that the car needs to be replaced by a new model or a completely renovated platform. The 2008 Focus was putting lipstick on a pig to keep sales up. The 2005 restyle was barely different the the 2000 MY Focus and outside of dropping one of the engines not very different. Also NA needed something "cheap"(as in development money) in that segment to compete till the truly World Focus came in 2011 or so. It was just pearlescent timing with gas and economy crashing at that time. In 2010 or so Ford was finally committing to making platforms world wide and getting rid of regional car platforms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 I was trying to support your point that the car needs to be replaced by a new model or a completely renovated platform. The 2008 Focus was putting lipstick on a pig to keep sales up. The 2005 restyle was barely different the the 2000 MY Focus and outside of dropping one of the engines not very different. Also NA needed something "cheap"(as in development money) in that segment to compete till the truly World Focus came in 2011 or so. It was just pearlescent timing with gas and economy crashing at that time. In 2010 or so Ford was finally committing to making platforms world wide and getting rid of regional car platforms. Why does that sound familiar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Why does that sound familiar? Given the fact that they where doing things on the "cheap" at the time because they wheren't making money on compact cars till another 3-4 years later. I think the current "lack" of updates was because Ford was trying not to rock the boat with the styling success of the Fusion (applying it to the Focus) and the Escape styling was brought into line with the rest of the CUV/SUV lineup "look" vs looking like a 2012 Focus on stilts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 The frustrating part is I thought Ford was ready to get into a cadence of regular MCEs and platform tweaks which could be done much more frequently and for far less money than it took to do all the platform consolidations and bring out brand new platforms - basically what Toyota has been doing for quite some time now. Now it seems they are changing horses mid stream again. Probably the right decision from a long term business standpoint to focus on electrification, but frustrating to see Ford falling behind on products in the meantime. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 The frustrating part is I thought Ford was ready to get into a cadence of regular MCEs and platform tweaks which could be done much more frequently and for far less money than it took to do all the platform consolidations and bring out brand new platforms - basically what Toyota has been doing for quite some time now. Now it seems they are changing horses mid stream again. Probably the right decision from a long term business standpoint to focus on electrification, but frustrating to see Ford falling behind on products in the meantime. How aren't they doing regular MCE's and updates? Seems like everything is getting an update of some sort every 5 years at least. Seems like there is more platform consolidation that needs to happen over the next 5 years or so with a re-jiggering of products... It does bring this up...outside of electrification, what is going to make the Model E different from the Escape? Does it need to be its own model? At one point it seemed like it was going to be a family of products, but we don't even know that. Ford is going add the Ranger, Bronco, Ecosport and Model E all with in the next 24-36 months. That isn't even mentioning a new or updated Fiesta, Focus, Navigator, Expedition, and Explorer/Lincoln Explorer that will or currently exist. After 2020, we'll see a new Mustang and I'm guessing some sort of RWD Lincoln to be shared with it and the eventual update to the Fusion/MKZ/Edge/MKX. Not really sure what Ford is missing (at least in North America) product wise over the next 4 years (which will be 2021) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 How aren't they doing regular MCE's and updates? Seems like everything is getting an update of some sort every 5 years at least. Seems like there is more platform consolidation that needs to happen over the next 5 years or so with a re-jiggering of products... It does bring this up...outside of electrification, what is going to make the Model E different from the Escape? Does it need to be its own model? At one point it seemed like it was going to be a family of products, but we don't even know that. Ford is going add the Ranger, Bronco, Ecosport and Model E all with in the next 24-36 months. That isn't even mentioning a new or updated Fiesta, Focus, Navigator, Expedition, and Explorer/Lincoln Explorer that will or currently exist. After 2020, we'll see a new Mustang and I'm guessing some sort of RWD Lincoln to be shared with it and the eventual update to the Fusion/MKZ/Edge/MKX. Not really sure what Ford is missing (at least in North America) product wise over the next 4 years (which will be 2021) I think he meant that he thought we'd have more comprehensive MCEs rather than minor nips and tucks. That said, there is a lot of product on the horizon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 I think he meant that he thought we'd have more comprehensive MCEs rather than minor nips and tucks. I think that is partly due to being afraid of breaking a "good thing" and more or less engineering resources being maxed out from necking down platforms over the past 5 years or so. I'm suprised we haven't see anything else "new" engine wise in some products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted May 3, 2017 Author Share Posted May 3, 2017 MC..eh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 How aren't they doing regular MCE's and updates? Seems like everything is getting an update of some sort every 5 years at least. Fiesta, Focus, Escape and Fusion have not gotten anything close to a normal MCE. They're going on 5 (Fusion) - 7 (Fiesta, Focus, Escape) years with no major changes. I get why they're doing it and I'm sure it will work out better in the long run but it's frustrating to see them do all this work to get things combined on common platforms then let them rot on the vine for 6 or 7 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 Fiesta, Focus, Escape and Fusion have not gotten anything close to a normal MCE. They're going on 5 (Fusion) - 7 (Fiesta, Focus, Escape) years with no major changes. Whats a normal MCE? 2010 Fusion MCE added the 3.5L V6 and a slightly larger I4. Hybrid added (count that as new tech), new grill/headlights 2017 Fusion MCE added the 2.7L Ecoboost and added the Platinum trim level. "New" Front end-looks similar, but no carry over parts 2005 Focus MCE minor front end styling tweeks and new 2L I4 2015 Focus MCE New front end and rear tail lights and 1L Ecoboost- RS model added 2016 2013 Taurus MCE-New front end/tail lights and 2.0L Ecoboost 2014 Fiesta MCE-New front end/grill-ST model added Not sure where you getting these "major" improvements from that are lacking with new releases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 I think they should have done more in terms of the Fiesta, Focus and Escape refreshes and they should have gotten an all new tophat for 2018. Again I understand that they're delaying that because a new platform is coming so I get it, but it's still hurting sales a lot. As for Fusion, they got a rotary gearshift and a sport model. That's it. No other discernible interior or exterior changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 As for Fusion, they got a rotary gearshift and a sport model. That's it. No other discernible interior or exterior changes. Forgot the LED running lights on the Fusion and Escape that light up We'll have to agree to disagree with the styling changes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 "hurting sales a lot" Cheap gas and that CUV's are in style for most new buyers, that is what is "hurting sales". "For a little more we can put you in a truck [Escape]" Don't agree? Then why did Chrysler kill off the Dart and 200? Even the "holy grail" Camry is down. GM's "all new" Malibu isn't doing well, so if Ford brought out "all new" Fusion sooner, would it make a difference? Point is, don't expect a "comeback" for Focus notchback sedans with Mk4. Looks like the new C platform will be geared more for CUV products, and Focus will be more of a 'niche' car like the RS/ST/hatches. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 Fiesta, Focus, Escape and Fusion have not gotten anything close to a normal MCE. They're going on 5 (Fusion) - 7 (Fiesta, Focus, Escape) years with no major changes. 2017 Escape. New front and rear styling and major changes to the center console. Also added Sport package with interior and exterior styling changes. Also got the 1.5L engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 2017 Escape. New front and rear styling and major changes to the center console. Also added Sport package with interior and exterior styling changes. Also got the 1.5L engine. Ok, that's good for a MCE but it's 6 years old now where others would have a new vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 2017 Escape. New front and rear styling and major changes to the center console. Also added Sport package with interior and exterior styling changes. Also got the 1.5L engine. It will be argued that they didn't change enough...the Focus got a completely new front end, but people say it wasn't changed enough... The Fusion looks the same even though no parts carried over either... Like I said before, i don't see an issue with MCEs Ford is doing...they are being updated...depending on your viewpoint, the styling hasn't might not have changed enough, but looking back the past 30 years of styling since the 1986 Taurus, I think Ford has done a really decent job of MCEs since 2005 or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 Ok, that's good for a MCE but it's 6 years old now where others would have a new vehicle. Uh no...it launched in 2013MY...only 4 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 "hurting sales a lot" Cheap gas and that CUV's are in style for most new buyers, that is what is "hurting sales". "For a little more we can put you in a truck [Escape]" Small car sales are down for all the reasons we've discussed. But Focus is down much more than other similar vehicles. Civic and Corolla are only down 8%. Focus is down 24%! That is not due strictly to folks switching to CUVs. It's lack of updates and the DCT tranny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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