Jump to content

Custom Search





Coming Up Next:
Lincoln Continental • Lincoln Aviator


Welcome to Blue Oval Forums


Sign In  Log in with Facebook

Create Account
Welcome to Blue Oval Forums.  You must first register to create topics and post replies. Registration is a quick and easy process and only takes a minute.  Be apart of Blue Oval Forums by signing in or creating an account.
  • Start new topics and reply to others
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get email updates
  • Get your own profile page and make new friends
  • Send personal messages to other members
  • Create a photo album and post images
  • Use the Shout feature and more. . .
Click here to create an account now.
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

GM to Exit EU - Sale of Opel to PSA


  • Please log in to reply
101 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   akirby

akirby

    fordmantpw's alter ego

  • Moderator
  • 25,090 posts
  • Joined 18-April 06
  • Region:Decline
  • Location:Alpharetta, GA
  • Current Vehicle:2013 Fusion Ti (Ruby Red)

Posted 15 February 2017 - 01:52 PM

I get that GM has lost 20 billion dollars on Opel since the late 1990's.  But why they would walk away from a 14 million vehicle market baffles me.

 

Maybe it's not really profitable and someone in GM finally realized that revenue without profit isn't worth the investment.

 

 

 

 

 

Ha ha ha......just kidding.


  • AlRozzi likes this

2013 Fusion Titanium (Ruby Red)
2016 Lincoln MKX Reserve (Luxe/Cappucino)







Lose this advertisement by becoming a member. Click here to create a free account.


#42 ONLINE   mackinaw

mackinaw

    Blue Oval Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPip
  • 1,524 posts
  • Joined 15-July 06
  • Region:U.S. Great Lakes
  • Location:Northern Lower Michigan
  • Current Vehicle:2012 Focus 1994 F-150

Posted 15 February 2017 - 03:47 PM

When you look at their sales though it isn't pretty, 40% of their sales in Germany are to dealers, who then discount more and sell the car. It is a smart move on GM's part, they should have sold them when they had the chance 8 years ago. Just because the market is big doesn't mean you can compete in it. Look at Nissan in the full size NA truck market, millions of units sold each year but have been in the market for 15 years and still can't move any meaning full volume.

 

It still baffles me why they can’t compete in a market that is about the same size of the U.S. market.  I’m hardly a GM fan, but I do know a few engineers and their desire to make great vehicles is the same as any Ford engineer I know. 

 

 

GM does well in the U.S. market and in China, and yet they can’t figure out Europe.  Strange, considering that they’ve been there for over 80 years.



#43 OFFLINE   AlRozzi

AlRozzi

    Drive Ford

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPip
  • 590 posts
  • Joined 13-November 06

Posted 15 February 2017 - 03:50 PM

I can see GM having an interest in buying FCA in that they probably want to reclaim "old" GM pre-bankruptcy brands as follows;

 

Dodge is the new Pontiac

Chrysler is Oldsmobile

Jeep is Hummer

Fiat is Saturn

Alfa Romeo is SAAB

 

GM is whole again!  



#44 OFFLINE   RichardJensen

RichardJensen

    Does whatever a SpiderPig does

  • Moderator
  • 35,236 posts
  • Joined 02-September 04
  • Location:Sioux Falls, SD
  • Current Vehicle:2000 Mercury Sable

Posted 15 February 2017 - 04:08 PM

Well, this is pretty crazy.

 

Been busy with real-world stuff the last couple days and just found out about this.

 

This feels like an 'other shoe' announcement.

 

Buying into FCA would be utterly insane, but I can't see GM stepping back from being a global company.

 

I believe that GM's execs could easily talk themselves into buying FCA. Speaking strictly of book value, GM could easily absorb FCA's net debt in their cash surplus and if they legitimately believe that customers will be buying three shifts worth of full size SUVs for the next several years, they could talk themselves into that cash flow + Opel $$ restoring their debt/cash ratio.

 

FCA's sketchy balance sheet could do two things:

 

- convince smart people to stay far, far away

 

- convince foolish people that they're a bargain, because their book value is so low.


Edited by RichardJensen, 15 February 2017 - 04:10 PM.

photo-thumb-15254.jpg


#45 OFFLINE   bzcat

bzcat

    Blue Oval Enthusiast

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,539 posts
  • Joined 13-October 09

Posted 15 February 2017 - 06:09 PM

If GM is really serious about buying FCA, is there even a need to sell Opel?

 

Under no scenarios, would I ditch Opel and end up with Fiat in Europe. That's like trading Chevy for Mazda in the US (no offense to Mazda). Not just from the brand equity perspective but also the production assets. Opel plants in Spain, Germany, and Poland are probably much better run and more efficient than Fiat plants in Italy.

 

If the real reason for selling Opel is preemptive balance sheet engineering to acquire FCA, then they are doing it wrong. They should be talking to PSA on a joint bid for FCA and carve it up - GM gets Jeep and perhaps Alfa/Maserati, PSA gets Chrysler, Fiat and Fiat Professional, Dodge goes to the garbage pile, and someone else can come in the bid for Ram to avoid antitrust concerns in the US.

 

Here are all the note worthy assets in FCA:

 

Chrysler

Dodge

Ram

Jeep

Fiat

Fiat Professional

Lancia  :hysterical:

Alfa Romeo  :spend:

Maserati

Production sites in NAFTA zone (8 assembly plants plus other parts plants)

Production sites in Brazil (2 assembly plants)

Production site in Argentina (1 assembly plant)

Production sites in Italy (6 under performing assembly plants plus assorted parts operations)

Production site in Poland (Fiat 500)

67% of Yugo factory (Serbia)

33% of Fiat Tofas (Turkey)

50% of GAIC Fiat/Jeep (China)


Edited by bzcat, 15 February 2017 - 06:27 PM.

  • 2b2 likes this

#46 OFFLINE   RichardJensen

RichardJensen

    Does whatever a SpiderPig does

  • Moderator
  • 35,236 posts
  • Joined 02-September 04
  • Location:Sioux Falls, SD
  • Current Vehicle:2000 Mercury Sable

Posted 15 February 2017 - 06:34 PM

If GM is really serious about buying FCA, is there even a need to sell Opel?

 

Under no scenarios, would I ditch Opel and end up with Fiat in Europe. That's like trading Chevy for Mazda in the US (no offense to Mazda).

 

If the real reason for selling Opel is preemptive balance sheet engineering to acquire FCA, then they are doing it wrong. They should be talking to PSA on a joint bid for FCA and carve it up - GM gets Jeep and perhaps Alfa/Maserati, PSA gets Chrysler, Fiat and Fiat Professional, Dodge goes to the garbage pile, and someone else can come in the bid for Ram to avoid antitrust concerns in the US.

 

I'm not looking at this as what you would do, or what I would do, because we would've managed the whole situation differently.

 

If this is what's being contemplated, I believe it's being pitched at the Ren Center as 'trading Opel for Jeep.'

 

Again, if this is what's being contemplated, you would sell Opel for two, maybe three reasons: 1) Balance sheet engineering (as you suggest), 2) because GM doesn't want to be responsible for *two* albatrosses in Europe (Fiat & Opel), and possibly 3) because there would likely be anti-trust concerns with a company the size of GM (globally) obtaining a commanding presence in the EU.

 

Under this scenario, GM expects zero anti-trust concerns in the US vis a vis full size trucks (and it's tough to argue with that conclusion in this environment).

 

As far as brand redundancy goes, given the fact that these are the same execs that argued in favor of keeping Pontiac during the bankruptcy, I don't think they are especially concerned.

 

I'm not saying that any of this makes sense, but if it's being sold as "Opel for Jeep" to a bunch of execs who want dumbed down narratives, then who knows??


photo-thumb-15254.jpg


#47 OFFLINE   RichardJensen

RichardJensen

    Does whatever a SpiderPig does

  • Moderator
  • 35,236 posts
  • Joined 02-September 04
  • Location:Sioux Falls, SD
  • Current Vehicle:2000 Mercury Sable

Posted 15 February 2017 - 06:35 PM

And, as awful as Fiat is in Europe, they're at least slightly healthier than Opel.
 
 
 
 
Which really says a lot about how messy Opel is.

photo-thumb-15254.jpg


#48 OFFLINE   7Mary3

7Mary3

    Blue Oval Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPip
  • 1,940 posts
  • Joined 01-August 05

Posted 15 February 2017 - 08:11 PM

If GM or anyone else really wants FCA, or more likely a part of FCA (Jeep), I think they would wait for the bankruptcy that is coming.  No sense trying to make a deal now.  Why do you think FCA still hasn't found a 'partner'?  



#49 OFFLINE   RichardJensen

RichardJensen

    Does whatever a SpiderPig does

  • Moderator
  • 35,236 posts
  • Joined 02-September 04
  • Location:Sioux Falls, SD
  • Current Vehicle:2000 Mercury Sable

Posted 15 February 2017 - 08:22 PM

If GM or anyone else really wants FCA, or more likely a part of FCA (Jeep), I think they would wait for the bankruptcy that is coming.  No sense trying to make a deal now.  Why do you think FCA still hasn't found a 'partner'?  

 

I think GM smells an opportunity to secure Jeep without the risk associated with a bankruptcy bidding war or unexpected government bailout.

 

Again, this is all based on my assumption that we're looking at an "Opel for Jeep" play by GM.


Edited by RichardJensen, 15 February 2017 - 08:22 PM.

photo-thumb-15254.jpg


#50 ONLINE   2b2

2b2

    Mercury C557 wannabee

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,792 posts
  • Joined 21-August 04
  • Region:Decline
  • Location:NNW of Atlantis (Reno)
  • Current Vehicle:econobox

Posted 15 February 2017 - 09:44 PM



If GM is really serious about buying FCA, is there even a need to sell Opel?

 

Under no scenarios, would I ditch Opel and end up with Fiat in Europe ... Opel plants in Spain, Germany, and Poland are probably much better run and more efficient than Fiat plants in Italy.

 

If the real reason for selling Opel is preemptive balance sheet engineering to acquire FCA, then they are doing it wrong. They should be talking to PSA on a joint bid for FCA and carve it up - GM gets Jeep and perhaps Alfa/Maserati, PSA gets Chrysler, Fiat and Fiat Professional, Dodge goes to the garbage pile, and someone else can come in the bid for Ram to avoid antitrust concerns in the US...

hmm...

could the Opel sale be a smoke screen to cover them taking Fiat

stripping out Jeep (& anything else they want)

and selling (flipping) the rest to Peugeot? ...while keeping Opel?? (maybe minus any parts they don't want)


Edited by 2b2, 15 February 2017 - 09:47 PM.

It’s not a journey. Every journey ends, but we go on. The world turns and we turn with it. Plans disappear. Dreams take over. Yet wherever I go, there you are. My luck, my fate, my fortune. MERCURY. It's inevitable.
Posted Image

MMXX


#51 OFFLINE   ehaase

ehaase

    Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPip
  • 533 posts
  • Joined 04-November 99

Posted 15 February 2017 - 10:13 PM

I hope GM sells Opel and Vauxhall to PSA and gets out of that European money pit.  Buick only needs one sedan (LaCrosse) and not the Regal (Insignia). I don't want GM selling Chevrolets in Europe either. 

 

I hope GM does not buy anything from FCA. FCA has nothing GM needs. Ideally Chrysler should have gone out of business in 2009, but let Marchionne and the family that owns Fiat live with what they got. 


  • grbeck likes this

#52 OFFLINE   jpd80

jpd80

    Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,262 posts
  • Joined 02-June 04
  • Region:Decline
  • Location:My Happy Place
  • Current Vehicle:Falcon 302 V8

Posted 15 February 2017 - 11:08 PM

Meh, I think GM just gave up on Opel Vauxhall as just too hard, it can get engineering for Buick done via China

which has become a huge market for Buick btw, and one I'm sure will most likely be far more attractive to GM..

 

Also, I wonder if Ford's $1.2 Billon Pre-Tax result last year was the final nail in the coffin,

perhaps GM finally woke up and  realized just how far behind the curve it really was

and just how much was still to do in Europe before it was ever going to see a profit..


  • grbeck and 2b2 like this

#53 OFFLINE   AlRozzi

AlRozzi

    Drive Ford

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPip
  • 590 posts
  • Joined 13-November 06

Posted 16 February 2017 - 07:04 AM

I am skeptical of an FCA buy. Jeep is the only real value and I see it under attack by competitors.
GM is bringing back the Blazer and Ford the Bronco. Jeep may suffer.
Why would GM want to stay in Europe with Fiat?

#54 OFFLINE   630land

630land

    Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,258 posts
  • Joined 17-November 02
  • Region:U.S. Great Lakes
  • Location:DuPage Co. IL
  • Current Vehicle:Focus Hatch

Posted 16 February 2017 - 02:41 PM

Car guys are going nuts, thinking Opel is a 'sacred cow', even though not making money and is just a "jobs program". Sure it's 80 years old, but has been loosing money for nearly the last 20. Some will say "but cant they figure it out?", well at this point, why bother?

 

And others say, "but GM needs them". No, it sounds like some just like to see pictures of them on internet and go "look at the cool German GM cars". Buick is selling more and more CUV's these days, and doesn't even need Regal or Verano anymore. Veranos were sold with huge discounts to former beige Century owners, thinking they should pay "Chevy prices for a Buick" as some kind of "entitlement". But they need to make money, not give cars away.


Edited by 630land, 16 February 2017 - 02:43 PM.

  • ehaase likes this

#55 OFFLINE   Mr.Quack.

Mr.Quack.

    New BON Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • Pip
  • 9 posts
  • Joined 09-September 08

Posted 17 February 2017 - 02:32 PM

I am skeptical of an FCA buy. Jeep is the only real value and I see it under attack by competitors.
GM is bringing back the Blazer and Ford the Bronco. Jeep may suffer.
Why would GM want to stay in Europe with Fiat?

 

Jeep has always been "under attack by competitors". Suzuki Samurai (1980s-1998)? Nissan Xterra (1999-2016)? Toyota FJ Cruiser (2006-2016)? (Old) Ford Bronco? Toyota Landcruiser and 4Runner are still around like always. Many have tried to compete with Jeep at their own game over the years. Few have succeeded.

 

Thing is, nobody cares about jeepin more than Jeep. Any competitor put on the market might be as good of a lifestyle vehicle, probably won't be cheaper, and won't have the brand image, name, and style that Jeep has spent the past several decades cultivating. I.E., Jeeps, jeepin, Jeep Jamborees, Jeep Safaris, Jeep roads, Jeep Wave, Jeep clubs, Jeep apparel...  So why buy the knockoff when you can buy the real thing?


Edited by Mr.Quack., 17 February 2017 - 02:33 PM.


#56 OFFLINE   silvrsvt

silvrsvt

    Bite my Shiny metal ass!

  • Moderator
  • 17,542 posts
  • Joined 03-October 02
  • Region:U.S. Northeast
  • Location:New Jersey
  • Current Vehicle:2017 Escape SE AWD/2013 Taurus SHO

Posted 17 February 2017 - 02:45 PM

Thing is, nobody cares about jeepin more than Jeep. Any competitor put on the market might be as good of a lifestyle vehicle, probably won't be cheaper, and won't have the brand image, name, and style that Jeep has spent the past several decades cultivating. I.E., Jeeps, jeepin, Jeep Jamborees, Jeep Safaris, Jeep roads, Jeep Wave, Jeep clubs, Jeep apparel...  So why buy the knockoff when you can buy the real thing?

 

Oddly enough the Wrangler has one of the worst ratings among car magazines as an everyday car, but yet it has a zealous following still. 

 

IMO if someone can crack the daily driver part and still similar off road chops like the Wrangler, they'll pull buyers away. IMO I think that is what Ford is aiming for with Bronco. When have the Japanese actually had a successful (well recently) pickup lor off roader launch? The Tacoma is more or less the same thing as the Wrangler and is ripe for the taking.

 

Ford created the SUV market with the original Explorer, even though the Cherokee was around well before it (not sure when the 4 door hit the market though) but it couldn't compete with the Explorer in comfort. Even the Grand Cherokee still doesn't sell as well as the current Explorer, even though they admittedly are in different markets now. 


  • Mr.Quack. likes this

"Hell, there are no rules here-- we're trying to accomplish something."
Thomas A. Edison


Ford Products owned though the years:
1986 Escort GT Race Red
1998 Mustang GT Dark Green Satin
2002 SVT Focus Satin Silver
2006 Mustang GT Tungsten Grey

2010 Escape XLT AWD Sport Blue
2013 Taurus SHO Ruby Red

2017 Escape SE AWD Platinum White

Future Fords:
2021 Bronco

20xx Mustang GT350 or the like

 

199923.png
 
photo-thumb-15254.jpg


#57 OFFLINE   AlRozzi

AlRozzi

    Drive Ford

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPip
  • 590 posts
  • Joined 13-November 06

Posted 17 February 2017 - 03:14 PM

If GM intends to buy FCA then maybe they can rationalize it this way:

Drop the Chrysler brand and move Pacifica to Buick. Cut the Regal.

Move Ram back under the Dodge banner and move the vans to Chevy and drop the Nissan derived small van.

Discontinue selling Fiat and Alfa in the U. S.
Sell Alfa to VW.

Sell Maserati.

Drop Dodge cars and field a Jeep-Dodge truck and SUV brand.

Maybe that could make sense?

#58 ONLINE   mackinaw

mackinaw

    Blue Oval Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPip
  • 1,524 posts
  • Joined 15-July 06
  • Region:U.S. Great Lakes
  • Location:Northern Lower Michigan
  • Current Vehicle:2012 Focus 1994 F-150

Posted 17 February 2017 - 03:49 PM

Thing is, nobody cares about jeepin more than Jeep. Any competitor put on the market might be as good of a lifestyle vehicle, probably won't be cheaper, and won't have the brand image, name, and style that Jeep has spent the past several decades cultivating. I.E., Jeeps, jeepin, Jeep Jamborees, Jeep Safaris, Jeep roads, Jeep Wave, Jeep clubs, Jeep apparel...  So why buy the knockoff when you can buy the real thing?

 

You absolutely nailed it.

 

 

I do give FCA credit for properly cultivating the Jeep brand.  Jeep’s global sales have increased by 140% since 2008.  That’s an amazing figure, anyway you look at it.



#59 OFFLINE   Mr.Quack.

Mr.Quack.

    New BON Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • Pip
  • 9 posts
  • Joined 09-September 08

Posted 17 February 2017 - 04:48 PM

 
Oddly enough the Wrangler has one of the worst ratings among car magazines as an everyday car, but yet it has a zealous following still. 
 
IMO if someone can crack the daily driver part and still similar off road chops like the Wrangler, they'll pull buyers away. IMO I think that is what Ford is aiming for with Bronco. When have the Japanese actually had a successful (well recently) pickup lor off roader launch? The Tacoma is more or less the same thing as the Wrangler and is ripe for the taking.
 
Ford created the SUV market with the original Explorer, even though the Cherokee was around well before it (not sure when the 4 door hit the market though) but it couldn't compete with the Explorer in comfort. Even the Grand Cherokee still doesn't sell as well as the current Explorer, even though they admittedly are in different markets now. 

Eh, from what I've seen Jeep products review pretty well these days. The modern Wrangler, with four doors, the Pentastar, a modern 6-speed transmission, and heavily upgraded interiors have come a long way from the 2007 model. They're perfectly liveable vehicles.

And I imagine most Wrangler buyers don't read or care what Road and Track says about the car. If they read a magazine it's probably Peterson's Off-road or something, which loves Wranglers. But the best adivertisement is the countless thousands of Wranglers you see with winches, big tires, light bars and no roof or doors driving around on the beach or crusing the town on a pleasant summers day. It looks like so much fun. Makes you want to buy one. Makes me want to buy one. Thats worth than any amount of magazine ink. Then you go on Craigslist or Autotrader and you see second hand Jeeps going for more than new ones. You see 1998 TJs going for $12,000. Supply and demand right there.

The FJ Cruiser and Xterra tried the exact play you advised the Bronco go for. They had better engines, drove better, quieter, better NVH, more fuel efficient, better towing, payload capacity, Nissan and Toyota reliability vs Jeep reliability...both are dead and gone while Jeep is switching to higher capacity factory for the Wrangler because they can't make enough of them.

I hope Ford knows something Toyota and Nissan didn't.

Edited by Mr.Quack., 17 February 2017 - 04:56 PM.

  • ehaase likes this

#60 OFFLINE   bzcat

bzcat

    Blue Oval Enthusiast

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,539 posts
  • Joined 13-October 09

Posted 17 February 2017 - 05:02 PM

Regal is the best selling Buick by a long shot. There is no way GM will get rid of it. Some of you need to step away from the crazy train.

 

 

 

I think GM smells an opportunity to secure Jeep without the risk associated with a bankruptcy bidding war or unexpected government bailout.

 

Again, this is all based on my assumption that we're looking at an "Opel for Jeep" play by GM.

 

Yes, I can see this is how they will sell it to the board - get rid of Opel, raise some cash, and buy Jeep.

 

But reality is that they've just bought a bunch of under performing Italian brands. However, I guess there is something to be said about synergy in South America where GM and Fiat are both decent size players.

 

 










Custom Search


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Privacy Policy Terms of Service ·