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Guest Message by DevFuse

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GM January '17 sales down 3.8%


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#41 OFFLINE   Fgts

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 04:22 PM

But worse than that, Cadillac ran discounted Sigma CTS up against the ATS for the first 12 months.
I think that's when the damage was done and the push back from buyers via sales staff was that
the cars were just too expensive, that sticker shock was the big impasse that continued with CTS.
 
In hindsight, what would it have hurt to have delivered just one car, the Alpha CTS and simply
continued the Sigma CTS pricing structure and making a affordable V8 option available?
2.0T CTS would then cover the ATS $34K entry point, the V6 to start at  $39K  and V8 at $44K.

 
 
GM ripped up the CTS playbook so it could go chase BMW and in doing, so Cadillac threw away
most of its CTS customer base who just went off and bought other products instead. The uniqueness
of the 'tweener CTS was lost when Cadillac decided to split the car in two and copy BMW 3 and 5 series.


Is this $44k v8 CTS on the same dealer lot as the $19k base Mustang with crank windows, no a/c and 5.0 power?...

My guess is those buyers went to SRX or XTS. The general class of cars where ATS and CTS is down overall, check how many E-Class and GS is moving these days, its not much. I believe the overall plan is Camaro, ATS, CTS will get periodical updates while staying on Alpha.







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#42 OFFLINE   fuzzymoomoo

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 04:33 PM

Lol you think the base Mustang has crank windows
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What? What happened?


#43 ONLINE   jpd80

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 06:23 PM

 

Cadillac did extensive focus group before and during Alpha program development and I'm sure this is what luxury car owners told them... that it needs to have products similar to the class leaders.

 Or was the focus group shown two "cars' to evaluate their perceptions?

 

I think arguably, Alpha is a little bit backwards looking because Cadillac end up benchmarking CTS and ATS with previous generation BMW 5 and 3 series but they did what the market asked for. What they didn't anticipate is that the "market" didn't think Cadillac belongs in it. The people Cadillac focus grouped probably will not buy one no matter what Cadillac made. In another word, their definition of the market was probably too narrow - they looked at people who were buying BMW and Mercedes but they didn't hear enough from people buying Acura, Volvo, or the FWD Lexus models.

 

I have a hunch that the market research was a little steered to get two cars over the line,

you even see a concession for China with the ATS-L - that should show up all kinds of red flags

that maybe one car size was all that was really needed.



#44 ONLINE   jpd80

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 06:39 PM

Is this $44k v8 CTS on the same dealer lot as the $19k base Mustang with crank windows, no a/c and 5.0 power?...

My guess is those buyers went to SRX or XTS. The general class of cars where ATS and CTS is down overall, check how many E-Class and GS is moving these days, its not much. I believe the overall plan is Camaro, ATS, CTS will get periodical updates while staying on Alpha.

No but a near $40K Camaro is on a similar parking lot as a $32K Mustang and that's emblematic of GM's

premium pricing. Considering the low value perception of the Chevrolet SS, $44K for a CTS V8 would

indeed be kick ass value. ;)

 

No doubt, many buyers have left the compact and Mid-sized luxury car segments but you don't attract buyers to

those vehicles by offering ersatz 2.0T and V6 engines while denying them the premium experience of a 6.2 V8,

 

High praise for delivering a brilliant chassis but to deny those buyers the  the V8 sizzle is to give BMW the easy win.

The onslaught of Utilities means that any cars that do survive will have to be extremely attractive to those niche buyers

The current premium pricing plan is not working, Cadillac needs to listen toits  car buyers and respond accordingly,

 

By comparison, you get a mid-sized MKZ starting at $35k as either hybrid or 2.0T but then grows to a 400 HP

3.0TTV6 for a reasonable $39K as FWD or $43K as AWD. Surely on the back of that, a RWD V8 CTS is not

a giant leap of faith....


Edited by jpd80, 03 February 2017 - 06:55 PM.


#45 OFFLINE   Fgts

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 07:05 AM

No but a near $40K Camaro is on a similar parking lot as a $32K Mustang and that's emblematic of GM's
premium pricing. Considering the low value perception of the Chevrolet SS, $44K for a CTS V8 would
indeed be kick ass value. ;)


You mean a $40k Mustang GT screams "value" also?, there's no way this magical $40k v8 CTS will exist and still be a Cadillac. The SS ranged up to $50k with a $42k starting price on an old platform. Could we see a decontented Alpha Chevy or Buick v8 sedan remains to be seen.

No doubt, many buyers have left the compact and Mid-sized luxury car segments but you don't attract buyers to
those vehicles by offering ersatz 2.0T and V6 engines while denying them the premium experience of a 6.2 V8,
 


You can get a 6.2 CTS for $80k.. .The upcoming n/a dohc 6.2 could be a cheaper alternative but i wouldn't be expected to be priced under $65-70k.

High praise for delivering a brilliant chassis but to deny those buyers the  the V8 sizzle is to give BMW the easy win.
The onslaught of Utilities means that any cars that do survive will have to be extremely attractive to those niche buyers
The current premium pricing plan is not working, Cadillac needs to listen toits  car buyers and respond accordingly,
 

The V-cars?

By comparison, you get a mid-sized MKZ starting at $35k as either hybrid or 2.0T but then grows to a 400 HP
3.0TTV6 for a reasonable $39K as FWD or $43K as AWD. Surely on the back of that, a RWD V8 CTS is not
a giant leap of faith....


CTS isn't even in the same category as MKZ ,the Regal would compete against MKZ, ES350, TL and such.

#46 OFFLINE   jpvbs

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 09:28 AM

I saw an article (lost the link though) that said Cadillac sold more cars in China in January than they did in the US.  It didn't provide a model breakdown of sales though.  What models are they selling in China and where are they sourced from? 



#47 OFFLINE   twintornados

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 09:46 AM

I saw an article (lost the link though) that said Cadillac sold more cars in China in January than they did in the US.  It didn't provide a model breakdown of sales though.  What models are they selling in China and where are they sourced from? 

.

From what I can see on the Cadillac China site, it looks like ATS-L | XT5 | CT6 | XTS

If I remember correctly, all of the Cadillac's for the Chinese market are made in China...


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#48 ONLINE   rmc523

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 02:57 PM

I saw an article (lost the link though) that said Cadillac sold more cars in China in January than they did in the US.  It didn't provide a model breakdown of sales though.  What models are they selling in China and where are they sourced from? 


I have the numbers at home. It was about 18K vs 10K for the US.

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#49 OFFLINE   RichardJensen

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 11:09 PM

Seeing it's Caddy's 2nd bestseller car

 

Ah yes, second best as in 'second place is a set of steak knives.'


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#50 ONLINE   jpd80

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 12:54 AM

I saw an article (lost the link though) that said Cadillac sold more cars in China in January than they did in the US.  It didn't provide a model breakdown of sales though.  What models are they selling in China and where are they sourced from? 

From a post on GMI:

Originally Posted by sfbreh


ATS improved: 63.8% over 3,895 = 6,380

XTS improved: 29.3% over 5,033 = 6,508

XT5 sold: 11,880

Escalade sold: ~2,197 (US only)

CTS sold: ~691 (US only)
 
REMAINDER: 1,108

In the US, CT6 sold: 634

REMAINDER: 474

 


Edited by jpd80, 05 February 2017 - 12:55 AM.


#51 OFFLINE   Fgts

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 05:01 AM

 
Ah yes, second best as in 'second place is a set of steak knives.'


So each car they sell have to be #1 in sales?.

#52 ONLINE   jpd80

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 09:01 AM

You mean a $40k Mustang GT screams "value" also?, there's no way this magical $40k v8 CTS will exist and still be a Cadillac. The SS ranged up to $50k with a $42k starting price on an old platform. Could we see a decontented Alpha Chevy or Buick v8 sedan remains to be seen.

Clearly the Premium GT Mustang starting at $38K does becayse the sales percentages versus Camaro's SS sales are much higher.

The SS based Commodore is not a good example because it too is considered overprices=d relative to what Chevrolet buyers are

prepared to pay..

 

Similarly the V-Cars are way overpriced for those who would buy them, hence they sell in the few hundreds per month.

and this is what I'm getting at, it's fine to ask high prices and make vehicles exclusive but if your buyers are expecting

 GM's 6.2 V8 strike weapon in cars well those days of affordable performance versus the Germans are gone.

 

CTS isn't even in the same category as MKZ ,the Regal would compete against MKZ, ES350, TL and such.

Now that's just overplaying the RWD aspect, when we consider internal volumes of the respective cars and what's available

for the $44K opening price.With CTS, it's a 2.0 T but with the MKZ it's an AWD  400 HP TT V6 - an engine miles above anything

the Regal has or ever will have. I could see Buick as a serious challenger if it had better TTV6 engines and AWD like the Lincolns.

 

The moment you check V6 and AWD in the CTS, you're at almost 49K and at that, the Continental with 2.7 TTV6 is right on the money.

See, there are a few choices to think about when you don't see the RWD cars as the only deciding feature in car selection. Lots of buyers

cross shop exactly the way I have just described and not completely as manufacturers want or expect.


Edited by jpd80, 05 February 2017 - 09:04 AM.

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#53 OFFLINE   Fgts

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 11:08 AM

Clearly the Premium GT Mustang starting at $38K does becayse the sales percentages versus Camaro's SS sales are much higher.
The SS based Commodore is not a good example because it too is considered overprices=d relative to what Chevrolet buyers are
prepared to pay..


But both cars still had similar declines last month, look at the market rather then the model before making that conclusion, the SS is what would a loaded mainstream v8 car would cost, the SHO, a loaded Fusion ST, Charger RT are in that price range.

 
Similarly the V-Cars are way overpriced for those who would buy them, hence they sell in the few hundreds per month.
and this is what I'm getting at, it's fine to ask high prices and make vehicles exclusive but if your buyers are expecting
 GM's 6.2 V8 strike weapon in cars well those days of affordable performance versus the Germans are gone.


Yet the CTS-V was soldout for last year and it's $80k price. Everyone knows a halo trim is what brings people to showrooms but people might buy a base model instead and what's with this 6.2 obsession?, CTS never had a v8 unless it was a V-car but now it's an requirement in the main models?. 

Now that's just overplaying the RWD aspect, when we consider internal volumes of the respective cars and what's available
for the $44K opening price.With CTS, it's a 2.0 T but with the MKZ it's an AWD  400 HP TT V6 - an engine miles above anything
the Regal has or ever will have. I could see Buick as a serious challenger if it had better TTV6 engines and AWD like the Lincolns.

 
The Regal mostly likely have a v6 return and it's already awd. A model year ago the MKZ wasn't really special either.

The moment you check V6 and AWD in the CTS, you're at almost 49K and at that, the Continental with 2.7 TTV6 is right on the money.


So I still get a faster Cadillac for the same price?, not everyone wants a fullsize.

See, there are a few choices to think about when you don't see the RWD cars as the only deciding feature in car selection. Lots of buyers
cross shop exactly the way I have just described and not completely as manufacturers want or expect.


Same for fwd, in luxury sales it's not who can make the cheapest "luxury" car it's what you really getting underneath the vehicle's skin (engineering, ergonomics, etc..)

#54 OFFLINE   atomcat68

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 11:25 AM

 

And the market moving to CUVs doesn't help either with sedan sales..though the Conti so far seems to be bucking that trend. 

 

The Conti isn't really bucking the trend. The MkS was so lame that anything would sell better. Ford was also smart enough not to put unrealistic expectations on how well the car would sell, so they did not make a dedicated platform for it.

 

When a MKT replacement happens, I'm sure it will outsell the Conti 2 to 1.

 

As much as many of us would like to see Lincoln as very different from Ford products with dedicated platforms, I have to admit that Ford is playing the luxury poker game with the hand they have brilliantly.


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#55 ONLINE   jpd80

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 02:00 PM

But both cars still had similar declines last month, look at the market rather then the model before making that conclusion, the SS is what would a loaded mainstream v8 car would cost, the SHO, a loaded Fusion ST, Charger RT are in that price range.
Similar declines yes but Mustang was already a tewo year old car where as Camaro was fresh for 2016, even worse when those run out V6 Zeta Camaros were deducted

Yet the CTS-V was soldout for last year and it's $80k price. Everyone knows a halo trim is what brings people to showrooms but people might buy a base model instead and what's with this 6.2 obsession?, CTS never had a v8 unless it was a V-car but now it's an requirement in the main models?. 
 The car was sold out because GM built modest volumes that could be sold out without actually testing the market. They really didn't know how that premium price would be received, Also, please understand that the CTS V8 suggested is far and away different to the S/C 6.2 CTS-V on sale for over $80K

* So to clarify:

-Replace current ATS with 2.0T & V6 CTS at current price structure (instead of using longer wheelbase Chinese ATS-L)

- At the current CTS entry point of ~$44K, all CTS become 6.2 V8 powered up to but excluding CTS-V (The Germans have nothing like that)

 

The Regal mostly likely have a v6 return and it's already awd. A model year ago the MKZ wasn't really special either.
The Regal begins as a 2.4 FWD basic and grows to a 2.0T AWD, there is no V6 or TT V6 and no hybrid. Therefore there is far less to compare with MKZ's options.

So I still get a faster Cadillac for the same price?, not everyone wants a fullsize.
How do you work that out, the TTV6 MKZ is way faster than the 2.0.T CTS and the Continental 2.7TT has more bottom end torque than CTS's NA V6

Same for fwd, in luxury sales it's not who can make the cheapest "luxury" car it's what you really getting underneath the vehicle's skin (engineering, ergonomics, etc..)

Cadillac is IMO, over relying on or overstating the importance of RWD dynamics to luxury buyers, not all luxury buyers expect pin sharp race car handling dynamics and in fact those RWD offerings are a smaller subset of the overall luxury segments. While I get the fundamentals of RWD dynamics as a strong selling point, it's clear that GM has overplayed its hand with that in the ATS and CTS to the detriment of lower trims lacking the the luxury feel buyers expect in that segment.

 And while I get that Cars and luxury car sales are receding a cross the board, my point is that GM's examples have started off at at

more exclusive point, the fewer sales achieved is accentuating that drop as compared to Ford and other car makers. So GM's car

sales are actually slowing at a faster rate than it expected (rising inventories).

 

All of this is still showing that GM is struggling between  two worlds, the old one where GM used to build cars for as many buyers as

possible and this new paradigm where GM seeks exclusivity with higher pricing and fewer sales. The one thing they are forgetting is

to match production to sales and meeting the needs of enough customers.

 

Not meaning to dismiss your responses, I find your thoughts fair and reasonable, just our observations and opinions differ

I'm a performance fan at heart and I want all to get their desired rides at more affordable prices without killing GM or Ford's profits . :)


Edited by jpd80, 05 February 2017 - 05:28 PM.

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#56 OFFLINE   RichardJensen

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 08:45 PM

So each car they sell have to be #1 in sales?.

 

Do you understand that reference?


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#57 OFFLINE   bzcat

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 02:45 PM

 Or was the focus group shown two "cars' to evaluate their perceptions?

 

 

I have a hunch that the market research was a little steered to get two cars over the line,

you even see a concession for China with the ATS-L - that should show up all kinds of red flags

that maybe one car size was all that was really needed.

 

No, the Alpha program started before China was even on the radar for Cadillac.

 

Cadillac recruited several hundred luxury car owners in California for a long term tracking focus group study from 2005 to 2008 while they were trying to figure out what to do with Sigma CTS replacement. I know this because I was in that focus group... ;)

 

What they learned from the study ended up in the blueprint for Alpha - 2012 ATS and 2013 CTS. The focus group told them they need to have a 3 series and 5 series competitors, not a in-between car sized like Lexus ES300, Infiniti G35, or Acura TL. The problem was that they took that literally and benchmark the ATS against E46/E90 while BMW was working on bigger F30 3 series that grew substantially to match the Japanese cars. Same thing happened with B6/B7 era A4 that was the benchmark while Audi went about supersizing the B8 series.

 

So what you saw with ATS when it came out was that is was sized more like the E46/E90 era 3 series and B6/B7 era A4 not the more roomy F30 and B8 that ATS was competing with both in the US and China.

 

BTW, Cadillac is not the only one... Honda, Toyota, and Nissan also got more or less the same message from their focus groups, which is why the new TLX and Q50 didn't get any bigger, and why the 3rd gen Lexus IS ended up being so small... same size as ATS. If anything, this is a cautionary tale of benchmark too closely when competition is a moving target.


Edited by bzcat, 06 February 2017 - 02:48 PM.

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#58 ONLINE   jpd80

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 01:16 AM

 

No, the Alpha program started before China was even on the radar for Cadillac.

 

Cadillac recruited several hundred luxury car owners in California for a long term tracking focus group study from 2005 to 2008 while they were trying to figure out what to do with Sigma CTS replacement. I know this because I was in that focus group... ;)

 

What they learned from the study ended up in the blueprint for Alpha - 2012 ATS and 2013 CTS. The focus group told them they need to have a 3 series and 5 series competitors, not a in-between car sized like Lexus ES300, Infiniti G35, or Acura TL. The problem was that they took that literally and benchmark the ATS against E46/E90 while BMW was working on bigger F30 3 series that grew substantially to match the Japanese cars. Same thing happened with B6/B7 era A4 that was the benchmark while Audi went about supersizing the B8 series.

 

So what you saw with ATS when it came out was that is was sized more like the E46/E90 era 3 series and B6/B7 era A4 not the more roomy F30 and B8 that ATS was competing with both in the US and China.

 

BTW, Cadillac is not the only one... Honda, Toyota, and Nissan also got more or less the same message from their focus groups, which is why the new TLX and Q50 didn't get any bigger, and why the 3rd gen Lexus IS ended up being so small... same size as ATS. If anything, this is a cautionary tale of benchmark too closely when competition is a moving target.

It's almostt like the original CTS sized car was actually a better size than the ATS...



#59 OFFLINE   Fgts

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 05:56 AM

 And while I get that Cars and luxury car sales are receding a cross the board, my point is that GM's examples have started off at at
more exclusive point, the fewer sales achieved is accentuating that drop as compared to Ford and other car makers. So GM's car
sales are actually slowing at a faster rate than it expected (rising inventories).
 
All of this is still showing that GM is struggling between  two worlds, the old one where GM used to build cars for as many buyers as
possible and this new paradigm where GM seeks exclusivity with higher pricing and fewer sales. The one thing they are forgetting is
to match production to sales and meeting the needs of enough customers.
 
Not meaning to dismiss your responses, I find your thoughts fair and reasonable, just our observations and opinions differ
I'm a performance fan at heart and I want all to get their desired rides at more affordable prices without killing GM or Ford's profits . :)


If GM is still making money off vehicles rather its of their trucks instead of cars dose it matter much if they're supposed to scrimp every dollar off any car they make?. GM have their way of running things so do Ford

The case for Alpha was the billions spent on it was written-off after the BK it would be foolish not to use that. With GM consolidating the CUVs with fwd sedans and them making truck/suv profits what's a few rwd cars that don't sell in McDonald's range would do?.

2 Last points you keep shouting out todays Regal not having this and that when I clearly said the "all-new" 2018 model with a v6 would challenge MKZ also what with this $40k 6.2 Caddy non-sense?, it just won't happen at that price, the 420hp CTS (that's faster than the SS) can be had a for under $60k but people not busting down doors for one.

#60 ONLINE   akirby

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 08:53 AM

GM have their way of running things

 

Yes they do which leads us to this phrase:

 

 after the BK

 

Something Ford doesn't have to say.



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