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Guest Message by DevFuse

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GM January '17 sales down 3.8%


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#21 OFFLINE   rmc523

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 05:20 PM

 

Like a rock?   ;) :happy feet:

 

Only if they're based on a Chevy......I guess Camaro is tied in there so it works!


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#22 OFFLINE   jpvbs

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 08:55 PM

The XT5 is selling at a significantly slower rate than the SRX that it replaced.

The GM mid size trucks do look like they have eaten into their full size sales. I suppose they are selling enough Canyonados that GM is OK with that though.

#23 ONLINE   atomcat68

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 10:49 PM

Real question: Is Alpha a failure, or a complete failure? No Cadillac sedan cracked 1,000 sales. Ouch. 

 

One did. Unfortunately it is the XTS, the stale product.

 

oops others pointed this out.


Edited by atomcat68, 01 February 2017 - 10:51 PM.

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#24 OFFLINE   PREMiERdrum

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 03:59 AM

 

One did. Unfortunately it is the XTS, the stale product.

 

oops others pointed this out.

 

Jesus take the wheel.. I stopped reading down the list once I hit ELR.

 

No intent there... the XTS is the product that they don't want to be around, though it surely has to have the best ROI and of late has been their strongest seller. Go figure. 


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#25 OFFLINE   Fgts

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 06:09 AM

 
Your counterpoint only reinforces his point, though.  The only Cadillac sedan that didn't drop was the XTS - the model based upon Chevy vehicles.

So do that mean Cadillac have to sale vehicles only based on Chebbies?. Lexus bestsellers are based on the Camry and Highlander didn't stop them to offer $90k cars, Benz have a full commercial lineup across the world but here it's "Luxury", BMW is mostly 2-4 Series but you have the 7-Series. Putting your best is what luxury is about while having a model(s) carry the the load, not stressing mid-America "luxury" isn't what this game about. The XTS go a total reprieve from Detroit so it looks like it will be Caddy's fleet car.

 
His point was simply that the billions upon billions they spent on Alpha, and now Omega, isn't looking to be worth it.  It certainly can't be breaking even when sales have continued to drop almost every single month since Alpha's debut.


You don't know what GM may do with the platform(s). The Camaro just being on the "Cadillac" platform alone indicates GM will share it's platforms across the company to cut cost. In fact which luxury sedan or sports car had a year-to-year gain in the past 5 years?.

#26 OFFLINE   PREMiERdrum

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 06:32 AM

You don't know what GM may do with the platform(s). The Camaro just being on the "Cadillac" platform alone indicates GM will share it's platforms across the company to cut cost. In fact which luxury sedan or sports car had a year-to-year gain in the past 5 years?.

 

Camaro was a late, late, late add to the Alpha program to try and salvage some volume amid hemorrhaging development cost and axing of planned derivatives. The migration of Camaro onto this platform with inherent packaging issues has yielded what is likely the most competently sporting pony car ever that nobody really wants to buy.   


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#27 OFFLINE   akirby

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 08:40 AM

 

the XTS is the product that they don't want to be around, though it surely has to have the best ROI and of late has been their strongest seller. Go figure. 

 

And it must be killing Johan...



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#28 OFFLINE   grbeck

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 09:29 AM

I believe that the XT5 is considerably more expensive than the old SRX - they were heavily discounted almost from the beginning. It's important to remember that when comparing XT5 sales to sales of the SRX. Isn't Cadillac working on a smaller crossover - the XT3 - to slot below the XT5 in size and price?

 

As for the new Camaro - GM managed to repeat the same mistake it made in the final F-bodies. Namely, the car provides great handling and performance in a package that is simply a pain-in-the-rear to live with on a daily basis.  


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#29 OFFLINE   akirby

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 10:00 AM

Isn't Cadillac working on a smaller crossover - the XT3 - to slot below the XT5 in size and price?

 

Yes, and that should actually help keep XT5 ATPs higher.  This is slightly different than the ATS/CTS situation - this should actually increase sales and share rather than splitting it between two vehicles.



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#30 OFFLINE   silvrsvt

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 11:29 AM

As for the new Camaro - GM managed to repeat the same mistake it made in the final F-bodies. Namely, the car provides great handling and performance in a package that is simply a pain-in-the-rear to live with on a daily basis.  

 

You'd think they'd learn by now...it doesn't help that the car looks more like a refresh vs a wholly new car/platform styling wise. 


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#31 OFFLINE   rmc523

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 11:29 AM

.


Edited by rmc523, 02 February 2017 - 11:30 AM.

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#32 OFFLINE   rmc523

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 11:32 AM

 

Jesus take the wheel.. I stopped reading down the list once I hit ELR.

 

No intent there... the XTS is the product that they don't want to be around, though it surely has to have the best ROI and of late has been their strongest seller. Go figure. 

 

I always find it annoying that GM/Caddy lists their vehicles in alphabetical order rather than how the vehicles are positioned in the lineup....so you end up with XTS at the bottom, while the other sedans are at the top because they start with A and C.

 

So do that mean Cadillac have to sale vehicles only based on Chebbies?. Lexus bestsellers are based on the Camry and Highlander didn't stop them to offer $90k cars, Benz have a full commercial lineup across the world but here it's "Luxury", BMW is mostly 2-4 Series but you have the 7-Series. Putting your best is what luxury is about while having a model(s) carry the the load, not stressing mid-America "luxury" isn't what this game about. The XTS go a total reprieve from Detroit so it looks like it will be Caddy's fleet car.

You don't know what GM may do with the platform(s). The Camaro just being on the "Cadillac" platform alone indicates GM will share it's platforms across the company to cut cost. In fact which luxury sedan or sports car had a year-to-year gain in the past 5 years?.

 

No, that's not what I said.  My point was they've spent tens of billions and have prioritized creating several platforms - only to replace those platforms after one generation, now resulting in their two current multi-billion dollar platforms (Alpha and Omega) - that underpin 3 "BMW-fighter" canyon carving sedans in declining segments, while ignoring other growing segments like crossovers.  They can develop sedans, but their way of doing it is inefficient and wasteful to say the least.

 

Furthermore, all 3 sedans look identical, so it's not as if there's been any big advancements design-wise to support the investment.

 

As PD said, Camaro was a late addition to try to salvage the platform specifically because it doesn't work for anything else (furthering my point of it being a waste - or at least inefficient use - of resources).  There's talk that Alpha isn't capable of underpinning the logical crossover counterparts to the ATS/CTS.

 

Mustang was up 2015 over 2014, and while down 2016 over 2015, 2016 numbers were over 2014 numbers.

 

Continental outsold its MKS predecessor for the year in just 5 months.

 

I believe that the XT5 is considerably more expensive than the old SRX - they were heavily discounted almost from the beginning. It's important to remember that when comparing XT5 sales to sales of the SRX. Isn't Cadillac working on a smaller crossover - the XT3 - to slot below the XT5 in size and price?

 

As for the new Camaro - GM managed to repeat the same mistake it made in the final F-bodies. Namely, the car provides great handling and performance in a package that is simply a pain-in-the-rear to live with on a daily basis.  

 

Yeah, they were giving SRX's away.  That's also correct - they are working on an XT3.

 

Visibility out of the Camaro is horrendous.....almost to the point where it may as well not have windows.

 

 

Yes, and that should actually help keep XT5 ATPs higher.  This is slightly different than the ATS/CTS situation - this should actually increase sales and share rather than splitting it between two vehicles.

 

Yeah, exactly - with ATS/CTS, its predecessor was a tweener size that served both markets, but then they slotted ATS below Sigma CTS size, while adding a larger, much more expensive CTS above it, as you said splitting the sales in two.

 

XT5 will stay roughly the same size (maybe a slight increase with the next gen as vehicles tend to do), with XT3 just slotting beneath it size and price wise, much like MKC came in below MKX.  It will be interesting, though, to see if/how XT5 sales are affected by the addition of XT3.  I know there'd be some changeover, as I personally believe XT5 sales numbers benefit from it being the only crossover in the lineup.....you want a Caddy crossover?  It's XT5.  Now they'll have another model in there.


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#33 OFFLINE   630land

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 12:14 PM

Trying to push "BMW 3 Series fighters" is a waste of time. Example: Lutz trying to call Pontiac "American BMW", why not just be itself? With BMW selling more CUV's, why bother anymore? Do they really need tweedy/preppie Buff Books' approval? Most buyers today could care less.

 

Just let the brands be at their best. Seems to be working for the Continental and MKZ.


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#34 OFFLINE   Fgts

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 07:54 PM

Trying to push "BMW 3 Series fighters" is a waste of time. Example: Lutz trying to call Pontiac "American BMW", why not just be itself? With BMW selling more CUV's, why bother anymore? Do they really need tweedy/preppie Buff Books' approval? Most buyers today could care less.
 
Just let the brands be at their best. Seems to be working for the Continental and MKZ.


Seeing it's Caddy's 2nd bestseller car behind XTS someone wants something other then a BMW, thou it don't have the 40 year head start as the Bimmer. People want a "traditional" Caddy can look across the showroom for an XTS or CT6.

#35 OFFLINE   akirby

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 11:38 PM

It may be 2nd car but it's 5th overall and it's the cheapest car and selling < 1K units/month. That's not a successful recipe.

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#36 OFFLINE   jpd80

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 06:16 AM

This is an example of two technically excellent cars that just cannot get market traction.

I wonder if the market really wanted or even asked for  an alternative to BMW 3 and 5 series cars,

With comparatively low sales impact,  either they are overpriced or not what the market wants.



#37 OFFLINE   jpd80

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 06:24 AM

Yeah, exactly - with ATS/CTS, its predecessor was a tweener size that served both markets, but then they slotted ATS below Sigma CTS size, while adding a larger, much more expensive CTS above it, as you said splitting the sales in two.

But worse than that, Cadillac ran discounted Sigma CTS up against the ATS for the first 12 months.

I think that's when the damage was done and the push back from buyers via sales staff was that

the cars were just too expensive, that sticker shock was the big impasse that continued with CTS.

 

In hindsight, what would it have hurt to have delivered just one car, the Alpha CTS and simply

continued the Sigma CTS pricing structure and making a affordable V8 option available?

2.0T CTS would then cover the ATS $34K entry point, the V6 to start at  $39K  and V8 at $44K.

 

 

GM ripped up the CTS playbook so it could go chase BMW and in doing, so Cadillac threw away

most of its CTS customer base who just went off and bought other products instead. The uniqueness

of the 'tweener CTS was lost when Cadillac decided to split the car in two and copy BMW 3 and 5 series.


Edited by jpd80, 03 February 2017 - 06:31 AM.


#38 OFFLINE   akirby

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 09:07 AM

I think a CTS coupe/convertible would have been just as successful.   Caddy buyers don't want small cars.


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#39 OFFLINE   bzcat

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 02:59 PM

This is an example of two technically excellent cars that just cannot get market traction.

I wonder if the market really wanted or even asked for  an alternative to BMW 3 and 5 series cars,

With comparatively low sales impact,  either they are overpriced or not what the market wants.

 

Cadillac did extensive focus group before and during Alpha program development and I'm sure this is what luxury car owners told them... that it needs to have products similar to the class leaders.

 

The Omega program on the other hand, is mainly driven by China.

 

I think arguably, Alpha is a little bit backwards looking because Cadillac end up benchmarking CTS and ATS with previous generation BMW 5 and 3 series but they did what the market asked for. What they didn't anticipate is that the "market" didn't think Cadillac belongs in it. The people Cadillac focus grouped probably will not buy one no matter what Cadillac made. In another word, their definition of the market was probably too narrow - they looked at people who were buying BMW and Mercedes but they didn't hear enough from people buying Acura, Volvo, or the FWD Lexus models.



#40 OFFLINE   silvrsvt

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 03:16 PM

 

Cadillac did extensive focus group before and during Alpha program development and I'm sure this is what luxury car owners told them... that it needs to have products similar to the class leaders.

 

The Omega program on the other hand, is mainly driven by China.

 

I think arguably, Alpha is a little bit backwards looking because Cadillac end up benchmarking CTS and ATS with previous generation BMW 5 and 3 series but they did what the market asked for. What they didn't anticipate is that the "market" didn't think Cadillac belongs in it. The people Cadillac focus grouped probably will not buy one no matter what Cadillac made. In another word, their definition of the market was probably too narrow - they looked at people who were buying BMW and Mercedes but they didn't hear enough from people buying Acura, Volvo, or the FWD Lexus models.

 

And the market moving to CUVs doesn't help either with sedan sales..though the Conti so far seems to be bucking that trend. 


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