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New Ford 7.0 L....?


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318 replies to this topic

#301 OFFLINE   silvrsvt

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 01:18 PM

How big could the 6.7 scorpion block go?

 

Wouldn't it be overkill for a gas engine? Especially when it comes to the weight?


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Ford Products owned though the years:
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2002 SVT Focus Satin Silver
2006 Mustang GT Tungsten Grey

2010 Escape XLT AWD Sport Blue
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#302 OFFLINE   Sevensecondsuv

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 06:03 PM

Interesting discussion on gas engines for class 4/5/6/7 commercial trucks.  Ford use to use the Lincoln Y block in their commercial trucks.  I think they were 279, 302 and 332 cubic inches. These were replaced by the Ford Super Duty 401, 477 and 534 V8 gas engines.  Many of these were replaced by the Ford FT series, which was a heavy duty truck version of the FE series on the class 6 and low end of the class 7.  I think these were  a 391, 361 cubic inches V8's.
 
I think the thing sparking interest in gas engine in class 4 thru 6 is alternative fuels like propane and LPG.  But again as someone else has said, anything that happens has to be justified financially which is very difficult to do when you are talking about 165,000 units for the entire industry for class 6 and 7.
 
Yes the 6.2 archetecture at a manufacturing plant level could reach up to 7 liters and even to about 470 cubic inches (7.7 liters) if the cylinder block is redesigned to have about a 10" deck height and CGI is used for the block material instead of grey iron. Will Ford do both a 7.0 liter and a 7.7 liter?  I guess we need to waite and see.
 
Edselford


That's where I was thinking they could add two cylinders to the 7.0, making a 8.8L V10. To me, it sounds like an easier way to get a big bump in displacement without co-producing a significantly taller deck block with different internals since they already have the design knowledge and manufacturing line for a V10.
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#303 OFFLINE   Sevensecondsuv

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 06:05 PM

 
Wouldn't it be overkill for a gas engine? Especially when it comes to the weight?

Biggest problem I see with the Scorpion is that it's set up for reverse flow heads, which make no sense on a naturally aspirated engine.

Edited by Sevensecondsuv, 24 April 2017 - 06:05 PM.


#304 ONLINE   jpd80

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 06:54 PM

That's where I was thinking they could add two cylinders to the 7.0, making a 8.8L V10. To me, it sounds like an easier way to get a big bump in displacement without co-producing a significantly taller deck block with different internals since they already have the design knowledge and manufacturing line for a V10.

And like the 5;4 / 6.8, those engines could be built n the same plant with machinery that could

switch between producing the two. A serious consideration when producing lower volume engines.

 

With stronger crank and pins, the bigger engines may avoid the cracking problems that plagued

the early simpler V10 plan that used shared crank pins and didn't require a balance shaft.



#305 OFFLINE   NLPRacing

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 09:55 AM

Biggest problem I see with the Scorpion is that it's set up for reverse flow heads, which make no sense on a naturally aspirated engine.

 

You could design an all new gas engine with new heads, induction, etc. and still use the Scorpion block.  Not sure if that would make sense or not.  How much does a bare Scorpion engine block casting weigh compared to a 6.2 block?  


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Current/Recent Fords:
2001 Ford Mustang GT Convertible 4.6L V8 (Purchased New 10/01, my toy, to be sold soon...)
2001 Ford F150 Lariat SuperCrew 4x4 5.4L V8 (Purchased New 06/00 - Sold 06/01/11)
2007 Ford Expedition EL Eddie Bauer 5.4L V8 (Purchased New 05/28/07, wife's daily driver - Sold 06/15/16)

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2014 Ford Fusion Titanium 2.0L EB (Company Car, took delivery on 10/16/14, turned back in 7/24/17)
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#306 OFFLINE   twintornados

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 11:06 AM

If I remember correctly, the 6.7L Scorpion block is made from compacted graphite iron, so it should be light enough and strong enough to make the cut.


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#307 OFFLINE   silvrsvt

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 12:50 PM

If I remember correctly, the 6.7L Scorpion block is made from compacted graphite iron, so it should be light enough and strong enough to make the cut.

 

Did some digging...the 6.7 is 160lbs lighter then the 6.4L diesel, but weighs in at 1100lbs with oil

 

For comparison, the V-10 only weighs 620lbs or so. 


"Hell, there are no rules here-- we're trying to accomplish something."
Thomas A. Edison


Ford Products owned though the years:
1986 Escort GT Race Red
1998 Mustang GT Dark Green Satin
2002 SVT Focus Satin Silver
2006 Mustang GT Tungsten Grey

2010 Escape XLT AWD Sport Blue
2013 Taurus SHO Ruby Red

2017 Escape SE AWD Platinum White

Future Fords:
2021 Bronco

20xx Mustang GT350 or the like

 

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#308 OFFLINE   fordmantpw

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 01:12 PM

 

Did some digging...the 6.7 is 160lbs lighter then the 6.4L diesel, but weighs in at 1100lbs with oil

 

For comparison, the V-10 only weighs 620lbs or so. 

 

The installed weight of the 6.7L is about 700 lbs more than the 6.2L.  But, you have to keep in mind there is a lot of extra stuff on the 6.7L, including:

 

  • More fluids: I think it's around 50 lbs or more just in fluids
  • Extra radiator (I don't think the 6.2L has a dual cooling system)
  • Turbo and associated plumbing
  • Intercooler
  • Diesel Particulate Filter
  • Diesel Oxidation Catalyst
  • Diesel Exhaust Fluid tank, fluid (7+ gallons so 60 lbs), injector, piper, heater, etc.

 

I'm sure there are other things as well.


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#309 OFFLINE   edselford

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Posted 01 May 2017 - 07:49 AM

Both 7.0 liter V8 and a 7.7 liter V8 could be made from the same block with a 10" deck height.  Much easier than dealing with balance shafts, crankpin breakage issues due to a 90 degree V10.

 

105.6mm bore and 100.2mm stroke gives 7.0 liter V8.  105.6mm bore and 110mm stroke gives 7.7 liter V8. out of the same block!

 

edselford



#310 OFFLINE   twintornados

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Posted 01 May 2017 - 08:36 AM

http://www.enginelab...g-2015-updates/

 

 

 

Ford was not only looking to increase the power and reliability of the engine, they were hoping to reduce the weight. This could give them better fuel economy but also the ability to increase the trucks payload capacity. With a stronger material, Ford was able to optimize the block design utilizing the stronger material. (Overall engine is about 160 pounds lighter than the previous generation 6.4.)


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Does anyone know where the love of god goes, when the waves turn the minutes to hours....Gordon Lightfoot, "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald"

A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have. ~ Gerald Ford - August 12, 1974

#311 OFFLINE   LSchicago

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Posted 01 May 2017 - 10:51 AM

That's where I was thinking they could add two cylinders to the 7.0, making a 8.8L V10. To me, it sounds like an easier way to get a big bump in displacement without co-producing a significantly taller deck block with different internals since they already have the design knowledge and manufacturing line for a V10.

Or they could just add 2 cylinders to the 6.2 for a 7.75 Liter V10 for 473 cubic inch. That should be enough for a MD. (I've owned a F650 V10). 



#312 OFFLINE   7Mary3

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Posted 01 May 2017 - 11:37 AM

No V-10. no gasoline engine based on Powerstroke block.  Remember the Powerstroke is manufactured in Mexico, and new gasoline engine will be built in Windsor.  I think this thing is all-new.   


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#313 ONLINE   jpd80

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 02:07 AM

If we're thinking of extensions to existing engines,

 

The 6.7 Blocks come from Tupy so it's possible that a variation of the 6.7 diesel is made as a larger gasoline engine with

conventional flow head design - a bigger bore with the diesel's 4.2 stroke would deliver the much needed low end torque.


Edited by jpd80, 02 May 2017 - 02:15 AM.


#314 OFFLINE   Sevensecondsuv

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 05:13 AM

I agree that 10 cylinders aren't needed if 7.8 is enough displacement. However, adding cylinders would likely be the easiest way to exceed 8.5L displacement.

#315 OFFLINE   theoldwizard

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 09:41 AM

I agree that 10 cylinders aren't needed if 7.8 is enough displacement. However, adding cylinders would likely be the easiest way to exceed 8.5L displacement.

I would be absolutely SHOCKED  :thud: if Ford EVER built another V10 !  It would only happen if Ford was going to do a whole new family of engines (like they did with the Modular) AND the V10 was planned from Day 1 !!  Even then, the bean counters would likely point out that the cost of the extra pistons, rods, etc., etc. does NOT justify the cost of all new machine capability.

 

COST, both tooling (fixed) and production (variable) ALWAYS control product decision.

 

So, based on those statements, I predict any new gasoline engine will use a block similar to something already in production.  Heads are wide open; 2V, 3V, 4V, SOHC DOHC or any combination.


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#316 OFFLINE   edselford

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 09:44 AM

I agree,

 

current V10/ 5.8l V8, 5,4l V8 are at 256mm deck height!  I would maintain this dimension on a new 7.0 liter V8 plus or minus 2mm.  Its like what can we machine on the existing cylinder block line????

 

LIkewise, on the new 4.8 liter V8,  Ford could keep the current 227mm deck height of the 5.0 liter/5.2 liter V8's or make an adjustment up to say 233mm to  237mm, utilize 93mm stroke and have about a 1.67 to 1.70 Rod/stroke ratio instead of their current 1.62. IE make the 4.8 a truck engine!

 

Edselford



#317 OFFLINE   theoldwizard

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Posted 05 May 2017 - 09:24 AM

Both 7.0 liter V8 and a 7.7 liter V8 could be made from the same block with a 10" deck height.  Much easier than dealing with balance shafts, crankpin breakage issues due to a 90 degree V10.

 

105.6mm bore and 100.2mm stroke gives 7.0 liter V8.  105.6mm bore and 110mm stroke gives 7.7 liter V8. out of the same block!

Very interesting, but only feasible IF the current block machining line could accommodate that extra 10mm !  That would take it from slightly under square to slightly over square.  It would not help NVH.  Over square engines have more sliding friction on the rings/cylinder walls than under square which does not help overall efficiency.

 

Personally I am expecting big changes in the cylinder head, possibly even cast in exhaust manifolds.


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#318 OFFLINE   NLPRacing

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Posted 05 May 2017 - 02:01 PM

I had a crazy idea pop in my head and figure I would share it here.  What if Ford was developing an all new V8 CGI block that could be used a gasoline engine with a displacement up to 7.0L and as a diesel up to 5.0L?  A 5.0L PowerStroke would bridge the gap nicely between the the 3.0L that is coming out and the current 6.7L.


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Current/Recent Fords:
2001 Ford Mustang GT Convertible 4.6L V8 (Purchased New 10/01, my toy, to be sold soon...)
2001 Ford F150 Lariat SuperCrew 4x4 5.4L V8 (Purchased New 06/00 - Sold 06/01/11)
2007 Ford Expedition EL Eddie Bauer 5.4L V8 (Purchased New 05/28/07, wife's daily driver - Sold 06/15/16)

2004 Ford F53 Chassis 6.8L V10 under my 2005 GBM 3500DS Motorhome (Purchased New 10/04 - Sold 09/12/12, replaced with a 2013 Kodiak 300BHSL travel trailer in 10/12)

1995 Ford F150 XLT SuperCab 5.0L V8 (Purchased Used 10/05/12 - Sold 09/23/15)

2014 Ford Fusion Titanium 2.0L EB (Company Car, took delivery on 10/16/14, turned back in 7/24/17)
2014 Ford F150 SVT Raptor SuperCrew 6.2L V8 (Purchased New 12/02/14, my latest toy)

2004 Ford Mustang GT 4.6L V8 (Purchased Used 10/12/15, son's daily driver)

2017 Ford Explorer Limited 2.3L EB (Ordered 7/20/16, took delivery on 09/14/16, wife's daily driver)

Potential Future FoMoCo Products:
2007 Ford Explorer Sport Trac SVT Adrenalin 4.6L V8 Supercharged (Cancelled, never built, R.I.P.)
Class A Motorhome w/a Ford F53 chassis

My next company car will either be a 2017 Fusion or 2017 Escape

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#319 ONLINE   jpd80

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Posted 05 May 2017 - 05:00 PM

I had a crazy idea pop in my head and figure I would share it here.  What if Ford was developing an all new V8 CGI block that could be used a gasoline engine with a displacement up to 7.0L and as a diesel up to 5.0L?  A 5.0L PowerStroke would bridge the gap nicely between the the 3.0L that is coming out and the current 6.7L.

That would only make sense if Ford was going to develop a new V8 diesel from scratch.

If Ford wants a smaller V8 diesel with CGI block, it has the 4.4 V8 built at Dagenham.










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