Radius Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Has anyone heard an update to the new 9-speed transmissions that Ford is developing with GM? There has been news on the new 10-speed for rear wheel dives, like the F150 and the Mustang, but nothing on the 9-sppeds for front wheel drive. The old 6-speeds are getting a little long in the tooth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcartwright99 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 I think GM gets the 9 speeds first and Ford the following year and vice versa for 10 speed transmission but who knows. The ZL1 is supposed to get the 10 speed when it comes out so I am confused. I understand not wanting to rush a new trans out the door but the 6 speed is getting long in the tooth, especially when taking in account that most of the competition has moved on from 6 speeds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 (edited) The last I heard is that it was coming to the 2017 Chevy Malibu later this year. http://www.gminsidenews.com/articles/2017-malibu-debuts-new-jointly-developed-9-speed-transmission/ Edited July 22, 2016 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 I think GM gets the 9 speeds first and Ford the following year and vice versa for 10 speed transmission but who knows. The ZL1 is supposed to get the 10 speed when it comes out so I am confused. I understand not wanting to rush a new trans out the door but the 6 speed is getting long in the tooth, especially when taking in account that most of the competition has moved on from 6 speeds. That's accurate. The 10 speed is debut in the 2017 F-150 starting with the Raptor and will be in the 2018 Mustang, and like BORG said, the 9 speed is debuting in the 2017 Malibu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Who's "the competition" because I'm still seeing Toyota, Honda, Kia, Hyundai, Mazda using 6 speeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucelinc Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 The upcoming 9 speed might be the greatest thing since sliced bread and, granted, the industry is going to more and more ratios. However, what works for CAFE does not always translate into a favorable real-world driving experience. I have driven a few Chrysler products with their 8 speed. It has a nasty tendency to not stay in the top OD ratio at highway speeds if you encounter the slightest little hill or even a headwind. I hate the constant hunting for the right ratio. Not saying the Ford/GM transmission would do that but I think ultra high OD ratios often have that tendency. The 6F50 and 6F55 have proven to offer excellent durability and drive-ability. I know there have been concerns with the 6F35. In any case, I am not unhappy that the 9 speed is going into the GM products first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 I don't get this multi-geared trend. I had an older Tauruses and GM sedans that got me 25-30 to the gallon on the highway at 75-90 mph with passing power leftover with "ancient" 4ODs . Unless in the US we get true speed unrestricted interstates IMO i don't see the use of anything more then 6-speeds. OTOH manufacturers were rushing to meet the 54 MPG mandate that was relaxed, it wouldn't be smart to throw-away $billions in R&D, contracts and equipment for a standard they don't have to meet anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 (edited) I think the vehicles missing the gears the most are those with more power and torque, especially at Lincoln where the 6-spd lacks the responsiveness and refinement expected in a market now mostly powered by 8+ speeds. Edited July 23, 2016 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 I don't get this multi-geared trend. I had an older Tauruses and GM sedans that got me 25-30 to the gallon on the highway at 75-90 mph with passing power leftover with "ancient" 4ODs . Maybe because those same cars now get over 30 MPG now with additional gearing? I don't think manufactures are going to spend money adding gears unless they are getting something out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucelinc Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 I think the vehicles missing the gears the most are those with more power and torque, especially at Lincoln where the 6-spd lacks the responsiveness and refinement expected in a market now mostly powered by 8+ speeds. Funny. I will have to remind myself of that the next time I show my Lincoln tail lights to an 8 speed hemi Mopar (non Hellcat) at the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Not an Audi, Mercedes, or Caddy eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 (edited) The added gears fill in "gaps" in the current gearboxes we don't even realize existed. Comparing GM's 8AT to the new 10AT, the 10AT adds a gear after 4th and 7th but the overall gearing is still similar. So the changes are designed to reduce the RPM steps between the gears meaning a more constant throttle position can be used. I would expect that the new 9AT will follow a similar strategy and fill in perceived gaps in the 6AT transmissions....and not simply adding more overdrives or lower first gears. Edited July 23, 2016 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Maybe because those same cars now get over 30 MPG now with additional gearing? If that was the case CVTs would be in nearly every production sedan. I don't think manufactures are going to spend money adding gears unless they are getting something out of it. They are, one point I made earlier was carmakers were aimed at the 54 mpg mandate with designs and components in order to meet that standard. Now they don't have to meet the requirements but billions were already spent for the 54 mpg requirements and they have to make the money back. The other point is IMO with 8-10 speeds isn't necessary unless we have 1997 Montana-style unrestricted speed states. Even back then during "Montanabahn" people in Reagan-Clinton era vehicles were cruising at 100mph+ with 4-speed OD or 3 speed OD automatics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 They are, one point I made earlier was carmakers were aimed at the 54 mpg mandate with designs and components in order to meet that standard. Now they don't have to meet the requirements but billions were already spent for the 54 mpg requirements and they have to make the money back. Your completely misunderstanding what is happening...they still have to make the requirements, its just that the consumers aren't buying the cars that would allow automakers to make the 54 MPG mandate...they are going to make the 50 MPG instead because people are buying more F-150s that get 18/24 vs 21/34 in the form a Fusion for example. Does anyone have a link as to how the old CAFE ratings translate with the new ones? 54 MPG isn't real world...its around 35-40 MPG with the sticker MPG from what I understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 The upcoming 9 speed might be the greatest thing since sliced bread and, granted, the industry is going to more and more ratios. However, what works for CAFE does not always translate into a favorable real-world driving experience. I have driven a few Chrysler products with their 8 speed. It has a nasty tendency to not stay in the top OD ratio at highway speeds if you encounter the slightest little hill or even a headwind. I hate the constant hunting for the right ratio. Not saying the Ford/GM transmission would do that but I think ultra high OD ratios often have that tendency. The 6F50 and 6F55 have proven to offer excellent durability and drive-ability. I know there have been concerns with the 6F35. In any case, I am not unhappy that the 9 speed is going into the GM products first. I've always thought that there is a certain point where a CVT would be a more logical answer if the 8+ speed transmissions can't be made to run more smoothly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Your completely misunderstanding what is happening...they still have to make the requirements, its just that the consumers aren't buying the cars that would allow automakers to make the 54 MPG mandate...they are going to make the 50 MPG instead because people are buying more F-150s that get 18/24 vs 21/34 in the form a Fusion for example.. Well I guess that's the case then, kinda smart to build stuff people en-masse don't buy until gas prices go up and would be well prepared instead of flat-footed 09' . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 I've always thought that there is a certain point where a CVT would be a more logical answer if the 8+ speed transmissions can't be made to run more smoothly. Until CVTs can reliably handle more than minimal amounts of power, geared transmissions will still be the better choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30 OTT 6 Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Until CVTs can reliably handle more than minimal amounts of power, geared transmissions will still be the better choice. CVT's sound like they're ready to fly apart at moments notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Until CVTs can reliably handle more than minimal amounts of power, geared transmissions will still be the better choice. The majority of Transverse engine Cars produce less than 220ft/lbs of torque well within the range for CVTs. I would bet the Actual market for This transmission to be much smaller than the DCT or even the New 10 speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 The majority of Transverse engine Cars produce less than 220ft/lbs of torque well within the range for CVTs. I would bet the Actual market for This transmission to be much smaller than the DCT or even the New 10 speed. Nissan's Extroid CVT went on sale last October in the Cedric and Gloria cars sold in Japan. These full-size, rear-wheel-drive luxury cars are powered by a turbocharged V-6 rated at 276 horsepower and 285 pound-feet, making it the highest-torque-capacity CVT in production by far. The Extroid CVT uses a torque converter and sells for roughly $2500 more than the standard four-speed automatic. It claims to improve fuel economy by 10 percent in Japan's combined driving cycle. Acceleration felt brisk, without a slip, and seamless in a Cedric we drove. A manumatic-style shifter permits selection of six discrete ratios for fine-tuning of engine braking, but optimal acceleration occurs by simply leaving the transmission in the drive position. That ultra-low ratio allows the car to start from rest without a torque converter. Ditching the converter boosts fuel economy. From a stop, one of two multiplate clutches engages -- gradually or quickly, depending on driving style -- for forward or reverse drive. The A6's engine is rated at 207 pound-feet of torque. The claimed result is an improvement in performance (0.1 second to 60 mph) and fuel economy (two percent on the European equivalent of our EPA city cycle) when compared with an A6 using a five-speed manual transmission (it blows away the Tiptronic auto). Audi's Multitronic transmission went on sale in European A6 front-wheel-drive models at the end of 1999, priced about $100 more than Tiptronic models. So it seems that higher torque rated CVTs cost quite a bit more then their geared counterparts. The problem you start running into is cost... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 The majority of Transverse engine Cars produce less than 220ft/lbs of torque well within the range for CVTs. I would bet the Actual market for This transmission to be much smaller than the DCT or even the New 10 speed. I'm not entirely sure you can speak of a "market" for a transmission when the majority of manufacturers who put them in their cars do so without any other automatic/automated transmission option. I'm looking at YOU, Nissan and Subaru. Speaking of Nissan, I don't know if they've released a FWD model that hasn't had documented issues with the CVT. Maximas (mated only to a V6 rated at either 265/255, 290/261, or 300/261 hp/lb-ft) have had widespread problems, but I've seen failures with the Rogue and I-4 Altima also. So it seems that higher torque rated CVTs cost quite a bit more then their geared counterparts. The problem you start running into is cost... Interestingly enough, Audi ditched their CVT a couple of years ago after offering it with their I4T and V6 engines in FWD guise. I've not known a European luxury brand to quibble about cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
probowler Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Why are they developing 9speeds AND 10 speed? Seems they could have cut a lot of fat by devoting to the 10 speed.... but i'm sure there was a reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Why are they developing 9speeds AND 10 speed? Seems they could have cut a lot of fat by devoting to the 10 speed.... but i'm sure there was a reason. 9AT for transverse (FWD) applications, 10AT for longitudinal (RWD). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 I'm a member of the Tesla Facebook page and I'll say while I hear numerous complaints about OTHER issues (funniest one is water inside the brake lenses-and people who THINK that is normal) , I will say the CVT is not something I've heard anyone complain about breaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 I'm a member of the Tesla Facebook page and I'll say while I hear numerous complaints about OTHER issues (funniest one is water inside the brake lenses-and people who THINK that is normal) , I will say the CVT is not something I've heard anyone complain about breaking. You won't find instances of CVTs breaking on a Tesla page or forum because no Tesla has a CVT (or any sort of ratio-changing transmission) that can break. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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