Feds Find Fiat Chrysler Gear Shifters Can Confuse Drivers

[silvrsvt]

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/feds-fiat-chrysler-gear-shifters-140636367.html

 

Doesn't sound like a very intuitive system.

[akirby]

Wait - so they replaced the traditional gearshift with one that looks almost the same but forces you to count the number of times you moved it to know which gear you're supposed to be in and to look at the display to confirm.

 

That sounds as stupid as GM replacing a simple analog tachometer with a fancy expensive, complicated and costly to replace LED tachometer - designed to look exactly like an analog tachometer.

 

And doesn't Chrysler already use a dial which is smaller and less confusing?

[fuzzymoomoo]

Engineers: overthinking the simple for all eternity©®

[akirby]

An optimist sees the glass half full.

 

A pessimist sees the glass half empty.

 

An engineer sees a glass twice as big as it needed to be.

[fuzzymoomoo]

I detest engineers. Especially after what some of these numskulls are doing to us at FRAP involving this Lincoln launch. I've nearly gotten into shouting matches with these fools.

[akirby]

I detest engineers. Especially after what some of these numskulls are doing to us at FRAP involving this Lincoln launch. I've nearly gotten into shouting matches with these fools.

 

They should make these folks install the parts that they design so they understand your pain.

 

We always did that with software - we had to support it which made you do 2 things when you wrote the code:

 

1 - try really really really hard not to have a bug in the first place so they don't have to call you at 3 am

2 - if they do call you at 3 am make damn sure you have enough information in the error message that you can fix the problem and get back to sleep quickly

[fuzzymoomoo]

 

They should make these folks install the parts that they design so they understand your pain.

 

We always did that with software - we had to support it which made you do 2 things when you wrote the code:

 

1 - try really really really hard not to have a bug in the first place so they don't have to call you at 3 am

2 - if they do call you at 3 am make damn sure you have enough information in the error message that you can fix the problem and get back to sleep quickly

 

I showed them in slow motion exactly what my particular issues are and their response was pretty much 'well that's the way it needs to be'

 

to which I replied 'well if doors start falling off my jig then don't blame me for your ridiculous requirements'

 

Engineers: That's the way it is and no, your opinion doesn't matter

[fordmantpw]

 

They should make these folks install the parts that they design so they understand your pain.

 

We always did that with software - we had to support it which made you do 2 things when you wrote the code:

 

1 - try really really really hard not to have a bug in the first place so they don't have to call you at 3 am

2 - if they do call you at 3 am make damn sure you have enough information in the error message that you can fix the problem and get back to sleep quickly

 

Advantage of being a consultant - the employee calls you at 8:00 am on Monday instead of you getting called at 3:00 am Saturday.

 

Quick note about engineers. I have an engineering degree (Electrical) and my room mate was one of those typical book-smart engineers with a huge lack of common sense. Extremely bright individual, probably the smartest person I know. I come home from class one day and the oven is on. I say, "smells good, what are you fixing?" "Toast." "Toast. Really? Why don't you just use that toaster over there?" "Hmmm, guess I never thought of that."

 

He's doing well as an EMI managing engineer with Intel now, but that story is fairly typical of your stereotypical engineer.

Edited February 9, 2016 by fordmantpw

[fuzzymoomoo]

 

Advantage of being a consultant - the employee calls you at 8:00 am on Monday instead of you getting called at 3:00 am Saturday.

 

Quick note about engineers. I have an engineering degree (Electrical) and my room mate was one of those typical book-smart engineers with a huge lack of common sense. Extremely bright individual, probably the smartest person I know. I come home from class one day and the oven is on. I say, "smells good, what are you fixing?" "Toast." "Toast. Really? Why don't you just use that toaster over there?" "Hmmm, guess I never thought of that."

 

He's doing well as an EMF managing engineer with Intel now, but that story is fairly typical of your stereotypical engineer.

You basically described everyone I've been dealing with for the past month. All that money spent on their degree got them zero street smarts.

[akirby]

 

Advantage of being a consultant - the employee calls you at 8:00 am on Monday instead of you getting called at 3:00 am Saturday.

 

Quick note about engineers. I have an engineering degree (Electrical) and my room mate was one of those typical book-smart engineers with a huge lack of common sense. Extremely bright individual, probably the smartest person I know. I come home from class one day and the oven is on. I say, "smells good, what are you fixing?" "Toast." "Toast. Really? Why don't you just use that toaster over there?" "Hmmm, guess I never thought of that."

 

He's doing well as an EMI managing engineer with Intel now, but that story is fairly typical of your stereotypical engineer.

 

Sounds like an over-qualified MS-SQL engineer............

 

Sorry, I just had to. It's been awhile......

[fordmantpw]

 

Sounds like an over-qualified MS-SQL engineer............

 

Sorry, I just had to. It's been awhile......

 

Are there qualifications to be an MS SQL engineer? It's pretty easy compared to Oracle...

[akirby]

 

Are there qualifications to be an MS SQL engineer? It's pretty easy compared to Oracle...

 

To be honest, I'm building cloud platforms these days and haven't touched Oracle in a few years.

 

We're moving more towards nosql databases and away from both Oracle and SQL Server.

[fordmantpw]

 

To be honest, I'm building cloud platforms these days and haven't touched Oracle in a few years.

 

We're moving more towards nosql databases and away from both Oracle and SQL Server.

 

And currently, I'm working more with Oracle and Sybase, which just reinforces my preference for MS SQL. Sybase is about as confusing as Fiat's gear shifter (to make sure we stay on topic).

 

What's your take on nosql vs. true relational dbs?

[akirby]

 

And currently, I'm working more with Oracle and Sybase, which just reinforces my preference for MS SQL. Sybase is about as confusing as Fiat's gear shifter (to make sure we stay on topic).

 

What's your take on nosql vs. true relational dbs?

 

Last post and we'll get back on topic.

 

It appears to work better in cloud deployments especially multi-site deployments. They're built for that out of the box. What I don't have a good feel for is performance and high availability.

[Anthony]

 

 

And doesn't Chrysler already use a dial which is smaller and less confusing?

 

They switched to the rotary dial afterwards. The confusing shifter was only in production for 2 -3 years.

 

I rented a Grand Cherokee that had the weird shifter and let me tell you.....it was weird and extremely unintuitive. The rest of the vehicle was awesome, but that stuck out like a sore thumb.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Anthony
I oops a word.

[bzcat]

 

They switched to the rotary dial afterwards. The confusing shifter was only in production for 2 -3 years.

 

I rented a Grand Cherokee that had the weird shifter and let me tell you.....it was weird and extremely unintuitive. The rest of the vehicle was awesome, but that stuck out like a sore thumb.

 

The shifter is nearly identical to the one Audi uses. And also identical in logic to the BMW shifter. But with one major difference... the BMW and Audi shifter doesn't have a "park" position - In BMW or Audi, you push a button to put the car in "park". These shifter work the same where you push forward to "reverse" and pull back to "drive" with "neutral" in between the two directions (so if you are in "drive" and need to reverse, you push forward twice). The shifter returns to a fixed position after you push or pull on it rather than staying in a physical gated position. Looks like where FCA failed is that they tried to applied the old PRND logic on a new form factor (requiring you to push forward 3 times to "park").

 

With the BMW or Audi shifter, I have to say that once you get use to this setup, it makes a lot of sense... there is really 3 different settings and the logic makes sense if you are transitioning over from driving a manual (which also has no "park"). But it does take a few days to transition from a traditional gated PRND automatic shifter to one of these. Is it change for change sake? Maybe... but the PRND shifter was itself a huge change that people got used to very quickly once they made the transition from other shifter patterns. I think FCA's only went half-way on the change and that's why it is confusion the heck of out people - it's neither here nor there.

Edited February 10, 2016 by bzcat

[RichardJensen]

"Okay, so here's the shift lever. You have to pull it back three times to put it in drive."

 

"Why?"

 

"Because this is a more advanced system. It doesn't use the traditional lever."

 

"But it looks like a lever."

 

"But it isn't."

 

"Why isn't it?"

 

"Because it's more advanced."

 

"It doesn't sound like it's more advanced, it just sounds like it's more complicated."

 

"Well it's also more advanced."

 

"What makes it more advanced?"

 

"Well, you see, in older cars, you pulled the lever back until you were in Drive, which was when the lever stopped. We have a new more advanced system that switches gears automatically. You just pull the lever back to shift from park to drive and push it forward to put it in park from drive."

 

"Okay.................. how does that make it more advanced?"

 

"Well, you see, it works differently."

 

"Yes....... but how does that make it more advanced?"

 

"This uses new technology in order to shift this way instead of the old way."

 

"Was there something wrong with the old way?"

 

"It was old. We felt it was time for something new."

 

"Why?"

 

"Because we wanted to have all the latest technology in our new Jeep."

 

"Does it have to be this complicated? It sounds like a lot more hassle to shift into park or drive."

 

"It's not that much more hassle for a new more advanced driving experience."

 

"Couldn't they have put in new technology and still had it shift the old way?"

 

"They could have, but then you wouldn't have been able to enjoy the new high technology built into your Jeep."

 

"But I don't think I'll enjoy this."

 

"Possibly this new high technology vehicle is not right for you. Fortunately we have a few Dodge Avengers left."

 

"A Dodge what?"

 

"Avenger. You know, like what Captain Marvel drives."

 

"Don't you mean Captain America?"

 

"Yes. Him. He drives a Dodge Avenger. They named the whole movie franchise after this car."

 

"It doesn't look very exciting."

 

"Well, it's not. It doesn't have a lot of that new technology that you seem to have a hard time with."

 

"But I don't have a hard time with technology. I just don't understand why the gear shift works that way."

 

"Because that car has new advanced technology. I really think this Dodge Avenger is more your speed."

 

"Why does it smell like cigarettes inside?"

 

"Well, this car's been in the back corner of the lot for about a year now, and I'm pretty sure most of the sales reps use it to smoke in when it's cold out."

 

"But it smells terrible!"

 

"It probably wouldn't if you also smoked. Have you thought about starting?"

 

"No I..... What? Why would I want to start smoking?"

 

"Because then you wouldn't notice how much this car smells like smoke."

 

"How about I just buy a different car."

 

"Well, you could, but the other cars all have that high technology that frightens you."

 

"It doesn't frighten me. I just don't see the point of it."

 

"Well, I suppose at your age, you probably wouldn't?"

 

"My age? I'm 28."

 

"Yes (sighs), time does go by quickly. Listen. If this Avenger isn't quite up your alley maybe we could look at a Fiat."

 

"A what"

 

"A Fiat, it's like this here Avenger but it's smaller, louder, and even less reliable."

 

"Why would I want a car like that?"

 

"Because it's Italian. Know what else is Italian? Ferrari."

 

"Why would that make me want a Fiat?"

 

"Because it's Italian. Just like Ferrari."

 

"I know. I've got that. But how does that make me want a Fiat."

 

"Look, Fiat is all about Italian style."

 

"But it looks like a Mini"

 

"Well it's not. It's smaller than a Mini."

 

"Why would I want that? I've got three kids!"

 

"Have you thought about putting one of them up for adoption?"

 

"Why? So we could fit in a Fiat?"

 

"Why not! It's Italian."

 

"Listen. I came in here to ask for directions to Chuck E. Cheese, and somehow I've been talking to you for forty-five minutes, and I really don't want any of your cars."

 

"I understand. Let me give you a card. If you don't buy a car from us, our dealer has to buy it himself, and then none of us get a commission."

 

"That sounds like a tough problem. Why don't you get a job with another car dealership."

 

"I'll let you in on a secret. I used to work for a car maker. I could tell you all about them."

 

"You worked for a manufacturer? Come on. You don't expect me to believe that."

 

"Sure I did. I'm the guy who convinced GM to build the Aztek. You know, that was a really misunderstood car."

 

"What part of it was misunderstood?"

 

"People said it was ugly. It wasn't. It was versatile."

 

"But it looked like a VW microbus crossed with a turtle, a cockroach and a Tupperware bowl."

 

"I know. Versatile, eh??"

 

"Do you even know what that word means? Do you know what any of this means?"

 

"Look. I can see this isn't a good time for you. Here's my card. Stop by if you ever decide that you want a Ram, a Jeep, a Dodge, a Chrysler, a Fiat or an Alfa Romeo--because we have those now apparently. Of course I haven't seen one. We've got lots of lovely brochures and the dealership just bought $50,000 sign, so I'm sure they must be around here somewhere. Maybe they're invisible. Boy! I'd love to see Tesla top that one. Alfa Romeo. The world's first invisible car. I wonder where you put the headlights? Ah you probably don't need headlights with an invisible car because it's invisible. You'd never hit anything on account of it being invisible." (continues to mutter to himself as customer edges slowly toward the door).

[kyle]

You actually don't pull it 3times but feel it go thru 3 notches if I'm remembering the Grand Cherokee I rented a few months ago. It could be easier to use and I can see where some people will struggle with it.

[rmc523]

I detest engineers. Especially after what some of these numskulls are doing to us at FRAP involving this Lincoln launch. I've nearly gotten into shouting matches with these fools.

 

So what are the issues you're having (if you're allowed to share, or PM if you prefer)?

[fuzzymoomoo]

 

So what are the issues you're having (if you're allowed to share, or PM if you prefer)?

I'd rather not say, I've probably said too much. It has to do with tooling, that's all I'll say publicly.

[rmc523]

I'd rather not say, I've probably said too much. It has to do with tooling, that's all I'll say publicly.

 

I guess more than anything I'm curious what you do.....installing doors I think you mentioned in a previous thread?

[fuzzymoomoo]

 

I guess more than anything I'm curious what you do.....installing doors I think you mentioned in a previous thread?

Yeah. Most days at least. I'm a floater so I fill in where needed. It just so happens 98% of the time it's on doors.

[spotdog14]

You actually don't pull it 3times but feel it go thru 3 notches if I'm remembering the Grand Cherokee I rented a few months ago. It could be easier to use and I can see where some people will struggle with it.

 

You do have to push it down three times to get it into drive. My wife has a 2014 GC, I personally hate the shifter. My wife has gotten use to it. I've never had a problem putting it in park, my major problem is going between reverse, neutral and drive. Unless I am looking physically at the gear shifter I am not in the correct gear. Also if you try to take it out of sport mode back into regular drive it will 90% of the time kick you into neutral.

[bzcat]

"Okay, so here's the shift lever. You have to pull it back three times to put it in drive."

 

 

I don't want to interrupt your performance piece

 

But you pull back once to put it in drive when you start the car (or if the transmission is in park). You do need to push forward 3 times to put it in park if the transmission is in drive, which is why FCA failed.

 

With BMW or Audi, you push a button to put the transmission in park, which is a completely different operation than "drive" or "reverse" so people adopt to it without problem.

[akirby]