wmsimpson Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 I'm looking to buy a new Focus and I want a sedan with manual transmission. I've pretty much settled on the SE because it has cruise control but lacks many of the bells and whistles I don't want to pay for in the higher trim levels. Yeah, I'm old school. I drove a 1 liter EcoBoost today and while I was impressed with the car's positive ride, smooth shifting and comfortable seating, I felt the engine lacked power, especially in the low and middle RPM ranges. It seems to be asleep at anything below 3000 RPM and really only woke up above 4000. At 60 MPH in top (6th) gear, it was chugging along at 3500 RPM, which seemed like a lot. I'd like to drive a 2 liter 5 speed, but there are none to be found locally on dealer lots. They all seem to have the 6 speed automatic. Can any of you kind folks tell me what the driving experience is like in a 2 liter manual 2015/2016 Focus? I've read elsewhere that reviewers have said the 2 liter needs to be revved high and the EB did not. Did they really drive the same car I did? I've also read that the clutch on the 2 liter feels different than the EB. Different how? Was it heavier or does it engage less smoothly? What else feels different between these two powerplants? On paper, the EcoBoost 1 Liter doesn't seem to offer much. You pay more for it, but it has 25% less power, less torque and not that much better fuel economy. I would also think maintenance costs might be higher owing to the turbo. Can anyone fill me in while I try and find a car to test drive? Thanks in advance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 I have a 2008 Focus with the 5speed, and a 2015 Focus hatchback with the 2.0/5speed same transmission, very similar engine (actually the same engine with some upgrades). I like them until I get up to around 70 on the freeway, then I feel the RPM holds too high, it could really use a 6 speed. Other than that no complaints. I've gotten almost 178k miles out of the original factory clutch in the 08 and still going strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 I have a 2008 Focus with the 5speed, and a 2015 Focus hatchback with the 2.0/5speed same transmission, very similar engine (actually the same engine with some upgrades). I like them until I get up to around 70 on the freeway, then I feel the RPM holds too high, it could really use a 6 speed. Other than that no complaints. I've gotten almost 178k miles out of the original factory clutch in the 08 and still going strong. My complaint on newer compact car manuals is that they all rev too high at freeway speeds. Additional gears are just spread to gain MPG in city driving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmsimpson Posted January 17, 2016 Author Share Posted January 17, 2016 Thank you for the replies. Okay, so what are the RPMs in top gear at 60, 65 or 70 MPH? Can anyone point me to a road test article of this car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Thank you for the replies. Okay, so what are the RPMs in top gear at 60, 65 or 70 MPH? Can anyone point me to a road test article of this car? Good luck finding an article where they road test one with a manual. They're a rare breed for sure At freeway speeds, the RPM holds at around 3000. It's more irritating in the 08 than it is in the 15 due to the lack of soundproofing in the older car. I drove the 15 from Detroit up to Big Rapids back in November and the higher RPM didn't annoy me nearly as much as they did when I took the older car for the same trip a few years back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Thank you for the replies. Okay, so what are the RPMs in top gear at 60, 65 or 70 MPH? Can anyone point me to a road test article of this car? Car and Driver calculated 23.9 mph per 1000 rpm in fifth gear for Focus 2.0L 5MT. Thus, engine speeds are: approximately 2,510 rpm @ 60 mph approximately 2,720 rpm @ 65 mph approximately 2,930 rpm @ 70 mph Links: Road test comparison article Specs & test results And here's a more recent road test of a 2015 Focus Titanium hatchback with 2.0L engine and 5-speed MT (a combination no longer offered for MY 2016) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 (a combination no longer offered for MY 2016) I recently discovered that myself and it really bugs me. Stupid people not wanting manuals..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmsimpson Posted January 17, 2016 Author Share Posted January 17, 2016 Car and Driver calculated 23.9 mph per 1000 rpm in fifth gear for Focus 2.0L 5MT. Thus, engine speeds are: Thank you, thank you, thank you! That is exactly the information I was looking for. Those numbers are consistent with every 2 liter car I've owned from my 1980 Triumph TR7 to my 92 and 02 Saturns. I'll go read those links, but I think the 2 liter will be the right car for us. It also makes me wonder if I screwed up somehow when I read the tach on the EcoBoost, but the dash said "6" and that's sure what i thought I was in. As to people not wanting manuals, there doesn't seem to be much of an advantage anymore as the autoboxes get the same or better mileage and you don't ever need to replace a clutch. Still, a stick is more fun to drive and that's important, too. It is to us, anyway. Really helpful post, thanks again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misempto Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) At 60 MPH in top (6th) gear, it was chugging along at 3500 RPM, which seemed like a lot. This isn't right. I've been test driving these all week, and it was right at 2500 rpm at 70 mph in 6th. I'd like to drive a 2 liter 5 speed, but there are none to be found locally on dealer lots. They all seem to have the 6 speed automatic. Can any of you kind folks tell me what the driving experience is like in a 2 liter manual 2015/2016 Focus? I've read elsewhere that reviewers have said the 2 liter needs to be revved high and the EB did not. Did they really drive the same car I did? I've also read that the clutch on the 2 liter feels different than the EB. Different how? Was it heavier or does it engage less smoothly? What else feels different between these two powerplants? Yeah I've found exactly one 5-speed in the entire state. I test drove it yesterday. The clutches and shift throws are definitely different in the 1L 6spd and the 2L 5spd. Clutch travel is shorter and softer in the ecoboost. I've read it's a hydraulic clutch, but I don't know if the 5spd isn't. The 5spd has a much more traditional feel to the clutch and throw, with longer firmer clutch travel and slightly longer throw. The 2L can really pull -- it pulls better at higher rpm but definitely pulls below 3000 too. The 1.0L is great for just motoring along, and if you need the modest acceleration it can give, you'd be winding it up above 4000. The 2L easily the more fun ride if you want to spool it around town and be able to accelerate on an on-ramp. That said, I am really torn between the two. The 1L turbo is so intriguing for a commute and road trip car, which is what I need more than a sporty experience. And a 6spd is 20% more fun to drive than a 5spd. The 6th gear is not only great for overdrive on the highway (2500 vs 3000 rpm), but the display will often cue you to 5th or 6th during city driving once your speed evens out in the 30s or 40s. I was motoring along in 6th at about 35 mph. It asked for it, and I assume that's just one more fuel economy trick. It's just such a nice bit of engineering it's hard to dislike and pretty admirable what it's doing with 1L, but definitely not great for overtaking on a county road. If it's more important to power through curves, up the on-ramp, and around traffic, you want the 2L. If it's a daily commuter or road tripper, you'll miss the extra power in maybe 2% of your actual driving. One other useful note is that the fuel economy is not terribly different. If you search Fuelly by year and engine, you'll see a roughly bimodal distribution of actual real-world fuel-up mileages. The way I read it is that mostly city mixed driving averages 29 vs 34 mpg, and mostly highway mixed driving averages 35 vs 40. Even at $4/gallon, a 15% improvement only amounts to about $300 per year per 10k miles. Here are links to the Fuelly results: http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/focus/2015?engineconfig_id=105&bodytype_id=&submodel_id=60 http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/focus/2015?engineconfig_id=13&bodytype_id=3&submodel_id=60 Edited January 23, 2016 by misempto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misempto Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) It also makes me wonder if I screwed up somehow when I read the tach on the EcoBoost, but the dash said "6" and that's sure what i thought I was in. Yeah I see what happened -- when the dash lights up with "^6", it's a cue to shift to 6th not your current gear. The 5spd has these cues as well, but they aren't really needed. The ecoboost just operates very differently than a traditional manual. The gear ranges are so wide, you can jump 2 or 3 gears in the city or on the highway. The adjustment only took me 3 test drives, but definitely drive it more than once if interested, it's very unfamiliar. Edited January 23, 2016 by misempto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmsimpson Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) Yeah I see what happened -- when the dash lights up with "^6", it's a cue to shift to 6th not your current gear. The 5spd has these cues as well, but they aren't really needed. The ecoboost just operates very differently than a traditional manual. The gear ranges are so wide, you can jump 2 or 3 gears in the city or on the highway. The adjustment only took me 3 test drives, but definitely drive it more than once if interested, it's very unfamiliar. Okay, I see what I did. This information isn't readily available on the web, but based on the gear ratios, final drive and tire size (from Ford) I calculate a speed of 24.35 MPH per 1000 RPM in 5th gear for the 2.0 and 26.85 per 1000 RPM for the EcoBoost. That gives 2875 RPM @ 70 MPH for the 2 liter and 2607 @ 70 for the Eco. Does that sound about right? If I go through this exercise for 4th gear, I get 17.95 MPH/1000 RPM and 3342 RPM @ 60, close enough to what I was seeing. I must have been in 4th gear, I know the lever was down. In my defense, I was on a busy highway in an unfamiliar car, and concentrating more on not getting in an accident than what the tach was reading. This does not change the fact that when I drove a 2 liter 5 speed car yesterday I found it had more power and delivered that power over a wider RPM range than the peaky Eco. It was just a more pleasing driving experience for me, so I bought it. I had to go 135 miles from home to find a 5 speed car, but I'm happy with the choice I made. Edited January 23, 2016 by wmsimpson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 This does not change the fact that when I drove a 2 liter 5 speed car yesterday I found it had more power and delivered that power over a wider RPM range than the peaky Eco. It was just a more pleasing driving experience for me, so I bought it. I had to go 135 miles from home to find a 5 speed car, but I'm happy with the choice I made. Congratulations on your new Ford Focus wmsimpson, and thank you for contributing to the effort to "save the manuals." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misempto Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Okay, I see what I did. This information isn't readily available on the web, but based on the gear ratios, final drive and tire size (from Ford) I calculate a speed of 24.35 MPH per 1000 RPM in 5th gear for the 2.0 and 26.85 per 1000 RPM for the EcoBoost. That gives 2875 RPM @ 70 MPH for the 2 liter and 2607 @ 70 for the Eco. Does that sound about right? If I go through this exercise for 4th gear, I get 17.95 MPH/1000 RPM and 3342 RPM @ 60, close enough to what I was seeing. I must have been in 4th gear, I know the lever was down. In my defense, I was on a busy highway in an unfamiliar car, and concentrating more on not getting in an accident than what the tach was reading. This does not change the fact that when I drove a 2 liter 5 speed car yesterday I found it had more power and delivered that power over a wider RPM range than the peaky Eco. It was just a more pleasing driving experience for me, so I bought it. I had to go 135 miles from home to find a 5 speed car, but I'm happy with the choice I made. Ha, I had the parallel experience. I just got back tonight with my new 2L hatchback from 80 miles away. It was the one and only manual 2L -- hatchback or sedan -- that I could find in the 2015 model year ($3000 Ford cash for the 15's was a crazy good deal) without driving 300+ miles. Lucky for me it was a palatable color and had the cold weather option. I had to snatch it up. Anyway, your numbers seem right, I was hitting 3000 at something like 72-74 mph on the interstate on the way home. I was also glued to the instantaneous mileage readout, and wondering if I wouldn't have a preferred an overdrive 6th right about then. But I completely agree with your take, the 2L was just so smooth and engaging to drive. I'm still enamored with the 1.0L, but I worried a bit about its high mileage maintenance and the 2L's drive-ability was too hard to ignore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmsimpson Posted January 24, 2016 Author Share Posted January 24, 2016 Ha, I had the parallel experience. I just got back tonight with my new 2L hatchback from 80 miles away. It was the one and only manual 2L -- hatchback or sedan -- that I could find in the 2015 model year ($3000 Ford cash for the 15's was a crazy good deal) without driving 300+ miles. Lucky for me it was a palatable color and had the cold weather option. I had to snatch it up. Anyway, your numbers seem right, I was hitting 3000 at something like 72-74 mph on the interstate on the way home. I was also glued to the instantaneous mileage readout, and wondering if I wouldn't have a preferred an overdrive 6th right about then. But I completely agree with your take, the 2L was just so smooth and engaging to drive. I'm still enamored with the 1.0L, but I worried a bit about its high mileage maintenance and the 2L's drive-ability was too hard to ignore. If they had offered the 1.5L ecoboost in the Focus, I would have snatched it up in a minute. A done deal. Pay more, get more. The 1 liter is a very curious option on the Focus, and evidently it's not all that popular. Not dissing it or you people who've bought one. I did like it but it didn't suit the way I drive nor meet my expectations as well as the 2 liter. I also had similar reservations about the engine's longevity and maintenance costs. I think I see a timing belt in there, and they need to get changed on a regular basis; typically an expensive operation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misempto Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) If they had offered the 1.5L ecoboost in the Focus, I would have snatched it up in a minute. A done deal. Pay more, get more. The 1 liter is a very curious option on the Focus, and evidently it's not all that popular. Not dissing it or you people who've bought one. I did like it but it didn't suit the way I drive nor meet my expectations as well as the 2 liter. I also had similar reservations about the engine's longevity and maintenance costs. I think I see a timing belt in there, and they need to get changed on a regular basis; typically an expensive operation. The 1.5L ecoboost does seem to make more sense in the Focus, but maybe the mileage wouldn't have differentiated enough from the 2L. I really did like the 1L and its intentions though, even when it played turtle on the on-ramp. I enjoyed driving it, it was much better than I feared at reading "3 cylinder 1 liter", but yeah it doesn't have a punch. Even so, the high-rpm turbo, integrated manifold, oil-encased timing belt -- just read this. That's a damn sexy kit of engineering if you ask me, but that's a lot of innovation to meet the test of time. If I understand correctly, they've only been on the roads in Europe for 4 or 5 years, so I don't think it's really known what the high mileage issues might be. I don't know what the inventory proportion was for the 2015s, but there seems to be a lot of leftover ecoboosts and pretty much zero manuals. The resale on the 2L is surely the much better bet. When I first started car shopping I was looking to buy used, and I could not find a 2011-2014 manual Focus other than the RS. So I think a well cared for 2L manual SE would be easy to unload if I needed to. The ecoboost probably needs gas back up at $4 to get wider interest. Edited January 24, 2016 by misempto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmsimpson Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 I don't know what the inventory proportion was for the 2015s, but there seems to be a lot of leftover ecoboosts and pretty much zero manuals. The resale on the 2L is surely the much better bet. When I first started car shopping I was looking to buy used, and I could not find a 2011-2014 manual Focus other than the RS. So I think a well cared for 2L manual SE would be easy to unload if I needed to. The ecoboost probably needs gas back up at $4 to get wider interest. I read somewhere that manual transmissions accounted for only 10% of production. EcoBoost cars were all manual, so the 2 liter manual cars were a pretty small percentage of the total. I guess it doesn't concern the majority that the autobox is a $1000 option! No problem, I get all the fun, intellectual stimulation and body involvement of the manual (sort of like pinball vs video games) for $1K less. Win-win! In any case, the new car came home yesterday. It was a 135 mile drive home, so I got to know it a bit better, and I really like it. Quiet without being isolated, there was enough engine and exhaust noise to let me know what the engine was doing. Chassis felt very taught. Seats firm and supportive. The whole car felt very European to me. German actually, which is a good thing. Thanks to all for their thought on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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