GOP and the Pope

[Len_A]

And things get more...interesting.

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/09/23/442594626/gop-presidential-hopefuls-walk-delicate-line-on-pope-francis?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=storiesfromnpr

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/21/politics/pope-francis-congress-republicans-politics/index.html?eref=rss_politics

 

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-francis-another-outsider-challenges-212800769.html

 

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/gop-pope-stick-religious-issues-defined-the-gop

 

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/09/23/gop-vexed-over-pope-on-climate-change/

 

http://www.salon.com/2015/09/22/the_gops_venomous_pope_tirades_are_the_ultimate_example_of_hypocritical_right_wing_rage/

 

For me, as the product of a Jesuit education (U of D Mercy, Class of 82), I saw this coming the minute the College of Cardinals did the unthinkable - elevated a Jesuit to the Papacy. The Jesuit Order (The Society of Jesus), within the Catholic Church, is the majority of the Church's doctors, lawyers, and scientists, and is also the order most like to upset the apple cart and rattle people's cages. Some of the other orders, have, over the centuries, even proposed disbanding the Jesuits (not that that was ever likely).

 

Now, for me, this is a source of amusement, as I watch some of my more conservative, both religiously and politically, neighbors just lose it over Pope Francis. He's even got me to attend mass once in a distant while, for me only to see some of these more conservative types get into it with their parish priest, and in a couple of cases, pretty bitterly.

 

I have to admit, it's very petty of me to find the humor in this, but after over fifteen years of having the label "cafeteria Catholic" thrown at me, by these people, seeing the shoe on the other foot is actually kind of fun.

[RangerM]

Something tells me the Papal policy on Planned Parenthood and fetal tissue distribution won't sit well with the Left, either.

[Len_A]

Something tells me the Papal policy on Planned Parenthood and fetal tissue distribution won't sit well with the Left, either.

No doubt not. But at the end of the day, so much of what he says, on the environment, on economic policies, on social justice, on immigration, on the poor, on the rights of organized labor, etc, that on the balance, it's the political right that has more problems with him than the left. In fact, most of the political left loves this guy.

[Len_A]

This one is interesting:

 

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/05/popes-pronouncements-making-trouble-for-gop-catholics-118234

[RangerM]

No doubt not. But at the end of the day, so much of what he says, on the environment, on economic policies, on social justice, on immigration, on the poor, on the rights of organized labor, etc, that on the balance, it's the political right that has more problems with him than the left. In fact, most of the political left loves this guy.

I suppose so long as the Pope supports your policy, you love him. Once not, you don't.

[Len_A]

I suppose so long as the Pope supports your policy, you love him. Once not, you don't.

I agree with him on some things, I don't on others. I do like him far more than Pope Benedict or Pope John Paul II.

 

What amuses me is that finally, there's a Pope who is pushing Church Doctrine - all of it - which, if you're either Catholic or you follow religious news, you'd realize that Right-to-Life, and traditional marriage isn't the be-all-and-end-all of the Church. In fact, with the exception of right-to-life (both abortion and physician assisted end of life) and the support of the tradition one man-one woman definition of marriage, a lot of the rest of Catholic Doctrine is actually moderately left-of-center, something the Catholic Republicans conveniently "forget".

 

Caring for the poor (and support of government programs for such aid) - always supported by the Church.

Help for all immigrants, legal or otherwise - always supported by the Church.

Labor unions - always supported by the Church, going back to Pope Pius XIII - that's going back a LONG time, 1938 to 1958

Support for workers rights - always supported by the Church, going back to Pope Pius XIII - that's going back a LONG time, 1938 to 1958

Support for government economic programs for the poor and middle class - always supported by the Church., again going back to at least Pope John XXII, 1958 to 1963.

Anti war, especially proxy wars - more often the view of the Church, especially against the Iraq War, all Cold War related proxy fights, etc

Pro life - with the Church, "Pro Life" means more than just anti abortion. It also means anti death penalty under all circumstances. And "Pro Life" also means the quality of life, defined as low or no cost access to medical care, fair wages and fair treatment of the working class, more emphasis on doing for the community rather than pursuing material success, etc.

So it's not a question of supporting the Pope because he supports a policy or policies I may favor. It's a case of calling out Catholics voting right-of-center on only a few issues, when they end up supporting more issues that are in direct contradiction of Catholic Doctrine. You can call out left-of-center Catholic voters for the same thing, pro choice and pro gay rights, but Pope Francis has called for an end to the emphasis on those issues alone, especially with conservatives contradicting Church teachings on everything else.

 

At the risk of being redundant, the bottom line for Catholic Republicans is that the majority of Catholic Doctrine is actually moderately left-of-center, has been for almost a century, and is something this Pope is going to constantly remind the world of.

[fordmantpw]

Center, left, right, who gives a $hit! I'm tired of hearing that crap! I want both parties to get along and do what is right for this country and everyone else.

That's what Pope Francis is saying more than anything else. Put your differences aside, quit acting like a bunch of spoiled brats, and do what's right.

[Len_A]

Center, left, right, who gives a $hit! I'm tired of hearing that crap! I want both parties to get along and do what is right for this country and everyone else.

That's what Pope Francis is saying more than anything else. Put your differences aside, quit acting like a bunch of spoiled brats, and do what's right.

The only problem with that, is trying to get a consensus on what is right for everyone.

[RangerM]

At the risk of being redundant, the bottom line for Catholic Republicans is that the majority of Catholic Doctrine is actually moderately left-of-center, has been for almost a century, and is something this Pope is going to constantly remind the world of.

 

Thing is, I'd say most (if not all) Catholic Republicans (although I could be wrong, since I'm not Catholic) are left-of-center on a personal basis. The difference comes when......

 

The only problem with that, is trying to get a consensus on what is right for everyone.

 

....you try to turn it into a political system for everyone.

 

("you" in the abstract, not you-Len_A)

[fordmantpw]

The only problem with that, is trying to get a consensus on what is right for everyone.

 

I'd say the Pope has a pretty good idea.

 

But, let's not twist his words and say a just wage means we need to raise the minimum wage to $15. Or, let's not twist his words and say 'support for government economic programs for the poor and middle class' means we need to increase welfare programs. People need hand-ups, not hand-outs. There's a difference.

 

 

[Len_A]

 

I'd say the Pope has a pretty good idea.

 

But, let's not twist his words and say a just wage means we need to raise the minimum wage to $15. Or, let's not twist his words and say 'support for government economic programs for the poor and middle class' means we need to increase welfare programs. People need hand-ups, not hand-outs. There's a difference.

 

 

no, I absolutely would not twist his words. That being said, and being the product of a Jesuit education myself, I can tell you that while many activists in the church don't consider it a handout per se, almost all of the ones that I personally know are looking for a bigger social safety net.

[Len_A]

 

Thing is, I'd say most (if not all) Catholic Republicans (although I could be wrong, since I'm not Catholic) are left-of-center on a personal basis. The difference comes when......

 

 

....you try to turn it into a political system for everyone.

 

("you" in the abstract, not you-Len_A)

nothing works as a political system for everybody. My experience is different than yours, about half the Catholics I know are diehard Republican, the others are die-hard Democrats, and most of the Catholic Republicans I know are pretty conservative on social issues.That's that's why a lot of them feel like the Pope threw them under the bus, especially on abortion and gay rights.

[RangerM]

nothing works as a political system for everybody. My experience is different than yours, about half the Catholics I know are diehard Republican, the others are die-hard Democrats, and most of the Catholic Republicans I know are pretty conservative on social issues.That's that's why a lot of them feel like the Pope threw them under the bus, especially on abortion and gay rights.

I can't speak to the Pope's attitude toward abortion or gay rights, since I don't know what he said. Those are issues that are universal (ie. not exclusive to Catholics).

 

I have difficulty with the recent softening of attitudes (in the church) toward certain social issues. My view is if God really is the Alpha and Omega, then if it's right now, then it must have been right since the beginning, OR if it was wrong at the beginning, then it hasn't become right.

Edited September 25, 2015 by RangerM

[fordmantpw]

nothing works as a political system for everybody. My experience is different than yours, about half the Catholics I know are diehard Republican, the others are die-hard Democrats, and most of the Catholic Republicans I know are pretty conservative on social issues.That's that's why a lot of them feel like the Pope threw them under the bus, especially on abortion and gay rights.

 

I don't know that the Pope through anyone under the bus. The Pope has stated that abortion and homosexuality (when participating in the sexual act, not just being homosexual) are wrong, and always have been. There is no change. There is absolutely no sin at all for a person to be gay if he/she lives a life of chastity. He has reiterated that. He also said that gays should be treated with respect and dignity, and shown love. There is nothing wrong with a gay person, but sex between two people of the same sex is wrong. The same as premarital sex and adultery. However, we should not show hate toward those folks, but offer love and extend the fact that God forgives and encourage people to repent. The one area he has softened is the fact that he is allowing priests the ability to absolve those who have had an abortion. I think that is a good thing. Jesus preached forgiveness.

 

I think the main point he is trying to get across is that we should show more love and compassion towards others and less hate. Hate the sin, not the sinner. Too many Christians have confused the two and shown hate and disrespect towards gays. Those people have given Christians a bad name, and I think the Pope sees that and is trying to change that.

 

I have difficulty with the recent softening of attitudes (in the church) toward certain social issues. My view is if God really is the Alpha and Omega, then if it's right now, then it must have been right since the beginning, OR if it was wrong at the beginning, then it hasn't become right.

 

Agreed! But I think too many have taken it too far in thinking that we should ostracize others for doing something that is wrong. The Pope is trying to reign some of that in.

[Len_A]

I can't speak to the Pope's attitude toward abortion or gay rights, since I don't know what he said. Those are issues that are universal (ie. not exclusive to Catholics).

 

I have difficulty with the recent softening of attitudes (in the church) toward certain social issues. My view is if God really is the Alpha and Omega, then if it's right now, then it must have been right since the beginning, OR if it was wrong at the beginning, then it hasn't become right.

Abortion and gays - not exclusive to Catholics, although you see some softening of the attitude toward gays, by some denomination.

 

My view, on the second part of your post, is that The Church has had some views in the past that did not hold up to the test of time, and has changed things that weren't the case in the early days of the Church.

 

Clerical celibacy is one thing that wasn't true in the Catholic Church's early history, with little to no evidence of it before the fourth century,

 

Prior to Galileo, the Church saw the Earth as the absolute center of the universe. In fact, Galileo came into serious conflict with the Church, having some of his writings subject to the Roman Inquisition (one if three actual Inquisitions held by the Catholic Church).

 

The problem seems that everything religious is subject to some human being's interpretation. Held against the test of time, very little "right or wrong" has been consistent over the centuries. Murder certainly has always been wrong, theft (up to a point...there's always the morality of the starving man stealing something to eat). Adultery - I suppose, But a lot of other things, not so much. Slavery? Nope, wasn't always wrong. Beating your wife if she gets out of line? I don't f***ing think so! Sell your daughter into slavery? I don't think so. Droit du seigneur, also known as jus primae noctis, the practice of a nobleman sleeping with anyone's bride on her wedding night, was sanctioned by the Church during Medievil times. Not sure, but I don't think that held up over the centuries...lol.

 

And the list can go on...forever.

[Len_A]

 

I don't know that the Pope through anyone under the bus. The Pope has stated that abortion and homosexuality (when participating in the sexual act, not just being homosexual) are wrong, and always have been. There is no change. There is absolutely no sin at all for a person to be gay if he/she lives a life of chastity. He has reiterated that. He also said that gays should be treated with respect and dignity, and shown love. There is nothing wrong with a gay person, but sex between two people of the same sex is wrong. The same as premarital sex and adultery. However, we should not show hate toward those folks, but offer love and extend the fact that God forgives and encourage people to repent. The one area he has softened is the fact that he is allowing priests the ability to absolve those who have had an abortion. I think that is a good thing. Jesus preached forgiveness.

 

I think the main point he is trying to get across is that we should show more love and compassion towards others and less hate. Hate the sin, not the sinner. Too many Christians have confused the two and shown hate and disrespect towards gays. Those people have given Christians a bad name, and I think the Pope sees that and is trying to change that.

 

 

Agreed! But I think too many have taken it too far in thinking that we should ostracize others for doing something that is wrong. The Pope is trying to reign some of that in.

"Thrown under the bus" was a direct quote from many conservative Catholics, responding to Pope Francis's statements, like calling proselytizing “solemn nonsense", and that “everyone has his own idea of good and evil” and that everyone should “follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them”. A lot of them don't like how he's tried to broaden the Church's appeal to a wider audience. They want a continuation of Pope John Paul II and more over, Pope Benedict's perceived harder view of morality - very conservative, everyone tows the line on right verses wrong. That isn't this Pope. Like some others are very upset because he said Catholics "don't have to breed like rabbits">

 

They're starting to call him a historically bad Pope. I can think of three neighbors, age ranges from very early 40's to early 60's, who are livid with him, and yes, feel like Pope Francis "threw them under the bus". I hate to admit it, but I have to laugh. After years of having to tolerate their sanctimony (and while my dog was alive, and I would walk him, it became so intolerable, that I started changing my route to avoid them, even though my dog like to play with their dogs), it's interesting to see them at odds with Rome.

[RangerM]

Abortion and gays - not exclusive to Catholics, although you see some softening of the attitude toward gays, by some denomination.

 

My view, on the second part of your post, is that The Church has had some views in the past that did not hold up to the test of time, and has changed things that weren't the case in the early days of the Church.

 

Clerical celibacy is one thing that wasn't true in the Catholic Church's early history, with little to no evidence of it before the fourth century,

 

Prior to Galileo, the Church saw the Earth as the absolute center of the universe. In fact, Galileo came into serious conflict with the Church, having some of his writings subject to the Roman Inquisition (one if three actual Inquisitions held by the Catholic Church).

 

The problem seems that everything religious is subject to some human being's interpretation. Held against the test of time, very little "right or wrong" has been consistent over the centuries. Murder certainly has always been wrong, theft (up to a point...there's always the morality of the starving man stealing something to eat). Adultery - I suppose, But a lot of other things, not so much. Slavery? Nope, wasn't always wrong. Beating your wife if she gets out of line? I don't f***ing think so! Sell your daughter into slavery? I don't think so. Droit du seigneur, also known as jus primae noctis, the practice of a nobleman sleeping with anyone's bride on her wedding night, was sanctioned by the Church during Medievil times. Not sure, but I don't think that held up over the centuries...lol.

 

And the list can go on...forever.

You have illustrated my (general) distaste for organized religion. True, I consider myself a Christian, but that is not the same thing. Christianity is the religion. Once you've added the "organized" part, it's more about dogma.

 

There are some things open to interpretation--mostly due to vagueness in the Bible. And allegory and metaphor doesn't make it much easier.

 

But, my goal isn't to be on the church's side, but that of the Almighty.

[fordmantpw]

Personally, I think Pope Francis is a great pope and I agree with most of what he is doing.

 

As a side note, even though I typically vote Republican, I'm neither Dem or Rep. I vote for whomever I feels will follow through with what I think is best.

 

But, my goal isn't to be on the church's side, but that of the Almighty.

 

Bingo!

[Len_A]

Personally, I think Pope Francis is a great pope and I agree with most of what he is doing.

 

As a side note, even though I typically vote Republican, I'm neither Dem or Rep. I vote for whomever I feels will follow through with what I think is best.

 

 

Bingo!

Same here. To me, Pope Francis walks the walk. I don't think we've ever had a religious leader like him before in our lifetimes.

[Fatso]

You guys realize that not everybody is Catholic?On top of that Pope Francis is just another guy {because you see I do not believe in "the pope"}with an opinion on matters other than faith.You guys also understand the importance of separation of church and state?I mean honestly if you are Catholic have fun but don't expect the rest of us to join your flock and bleeaaaah.How ya doin Len_A?

[RangerM]

The Pope meets with Kim Davis, and the Left hates him again.

 

Maybe this means the Sun will return.

[Len_A]

The Pope meets with Kim Davis, and the Left hates him again.

 

Maybe this means the Sun will return.

I'm not sure about the "hate" part, but I, for one, am disappointed and at the same time, not surprised. Traditional marriage is one area I don't see the Church changing it's view of, ever. What I am pleased about, is that it was all kept out of sight, and if it wasn't for Kim Davis's lawyer saying anything about this, no one would have even known about the meeting.

[RangerM]

What I am pleased about, is that it was all kept out of sight, and if it wasn't for Kim Davis's lawyer saying anything about this, no one would have even known about the meeting.

Here's where I have an issue (not with you). I'm not familiar with the lawyer, but I do question why it took his disclosure to reveal the Pope's (presumed) position.

 

Why keep it out of sight? What is a values' system worth if you won't defend it publicly?

 

That goes for both (political) sides. I may not agree wholly with a certain policy position, but I can respect someone who will defend it and not attempt to obfuscate it with "feel-good" terms and demagoguery.

[Len_A]

Here's where I have an issue (not with you). I'm not familiar with the lawyer, but I do question why it took his disclosure to reveal the Pope's (presumed) position.

 

Why keep it out of sight? What is a values' system worth if you won't defend it publicly?

 

That goes for both (political) sides. I may not agree wholly with a certain policy position, but I can respect someone who will defend it and not attempt to obfuscate it with "feel-good" terms and demagoguery.

Maybe because of what's supposed to be our country's separation of church and state? Maybe that keep the Vatican keeping this low key? I'm just speculating.

 

My problem with it all, is that if the Vatican kept it low key, why did the lawyer say anything?

 

Oh, and there's nothing to presume about the Pope's position - the Church is vehemently pro traditional marriage, and the Pope called out the mayor of Rome, who came out in favor of gay marriage rights, and called him "a pretend Catholic". Which I guess would make me one, too, on this issue, but then, I'm not a government employee or official, so who cares what I think.

[fordmantpw]

I think the Vatican kept it low key because they didn't want to cause any controversy on trip or in the US. Making a big deal out of it would have definitely caused a ruckus. Pope Francis was specifically asked (on the flight back to Rome) about govt. officials refusing to do their job if it violated their beliefs and he stated it was a 'human right' that nobody should be denied. Kim Davis was not brought up specifically, just the idea in general, but we all know what it was in reference too.

 

The lawyer brought it up with the sole intention of making a big deal about it. "Look, my client met with the Pope and he approved of what she was doing, so suck it!" While I agree with standing up for what you believe in, I don't think she truly believes in the sanctity of marriage. I feel she is doing it to make a big deal about it and get her 15 minutes of fame. If she truly wanted to make a stand, she would just quit her job and move on. No personal gain, your name isn't in the news every day, and no notoriety. I also feel the same about gays suing a bakery that won't make their cake. Suing them is just trying to make a big deal about it and take a stand. Just accept the fact that they don't want to bake your cake and go on to the next place that wants to take your money.