blazerdude20 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I don't what the freaking deal is between some of the posters and moderators around here but people seriously need to cut the bullshit arguing out. It's tired and drives useful posters away because no one wants to wade through the petty arguments of some old guys on a car forum. You want to attack each other then meet up in person and settle it but otherwise STFU and get back to Ford vehicle discussion. - no personal attacks or jabs. - no need to twist words of other members trying to share their points - if someone can't follow the basic rules of an online forum, suspend them. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 You know what? You're right. I'm sick of this crap, and I'm really embarrassed by my own role in it. I'm taking the rest of the week off. PM me if you want to chat about odds and ends. You guys figure out what you want this board to look like. Like I said, I'm tired of the crap and I'm not going to dictate any solution to it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Hear hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 How about setting rules (and posting them as a sticky) then enforcing the rules? If you need help with moderation, I don't mind helping out since I'm here all the time anyways. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02MustangGT Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Rule #1: Stay on topic That should do it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 How about setting rules (and posting them as a sticky) then enforcing the rules? If you need help with moderation, I don't mind helping out since I'm here all the time anyways. The rules are posted and we have plenty of moderators. Some of us take what's written literally and look at product decisions from a business perspective - especially when we work on business finances every day. Some of us write things that they don't really mean or use the wrong words (personal preferences and opinions vs. facts) and this causes much grief to the first group. A lot of folks have different ideas about what Ford should be doing. All of that leads to repeated arguments and it needs to stop. We all need to learn to just ignore certain things we don't agree with rather than starting an argument - or continuing an argument that's been going on for years. And I'm as guilty as anyone else. "Stay on topic and respect each other - no personal attacks" should do it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Where’s Robert Lane? It’s his forum but you wouldn’t know it. He’s virtually 100% absent. He’s got to step forward, make some rules, and enforce them. Where are the other moderators? Outside of Jensen, they barely make a peep. It’s time for them to step up and get more involved. Maybe add more moderators too. As for Mr. Jensen, he too often becomes the center of a attention, and this shouldn’t happen. A job of a moderator is to keep things on topic and enforce the rules. A moderator shouldn’t dominate a discussion as he seems to do. But of course Mr. Jensen should also be free to express his opinion. It’s almost as if there should be two Jensen’s. One who is the moderator and enforces the rules, and the other (under a different name) who posts his thoughts and opinions. No doubt this forum has gone downhill. I used to look forward to visiting here, I don’t anymore. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Robert is busy, which is why we have moderators. Personally, I think the moderators do a pretty good job. It's OK to stray off topic now and then once the topic has run it's course. That's how normal life works, and it's fine for forums too (and one of the reasons I love this forum). As long as it doesn't go way overboard, it should be fine. The problem comes with posters who continue to argue over the same thing, and bring up the same questions in order to stir an argument. Or have continuous jabs at certain people for comments they have made in the past. Sadly, RJ normally gets dragged right into the middle of it because he has a tendency to call out people and ask for facts. You can't blame him, though, as it adds to the discussion. A forum is a place for open discussion from all sides of the argument, whether right or wrong. If we can all be more open minded, and just let the petty stuff roll off our backs, I'm sure we'd be better off for it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Where are the other moderators? Outside of Jensen, they barely make a peep. It’s time for them to step up and get more involved. Maybe add more moderators too. I barely make a peep? Really? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I agree with all of the above sentiments. And I don't think there's any one person to blame for it. I actually brought this same topic up to Nick back in January of 2013 (i didn't realize it had been that long), so it's been going on for a while. I certainly still enjoy being here and reading and responding to threads, but I think we've all noticed that traffic has slowed and many threads get taken over by exactly what we're discussing here. Additionally , some members that posted quite often (Borg comes to mind, amongst others) have left for varying reasons - some out of our control, like Nick, but others within our control, at least to an extent. The reality is, we all have our opinion and viewpoint on things. Some of us tend to use more fact/information based arguments, while others use more opinion and personal preference. Both approaches are fine and warranted and can create genuine and interesting discussion if kept under control. However, what I've noticed over the past few years is that viewpoints of posters from both sides are getting rammed down the opposite viewpoint's throats in a "this is how it is, no questions" manner, resulting in a never-ending argument about the same things that pop up in different threads. Now, that said, are some arguments and viewpoints more realistic and achievable for Ford? Absolutely. Are some more speculative or a "wish list?" For sure. There's room for both, as they can create an interesting and lively discussion. But when someone viewing the forum comes back to check a thread after an hour and find there's a new page full of back and forth arguing between a handful of members, it's a turnoff - both to new/potential posters and to old members. My opinion on the separate viewpoints - I think given the rebuilding effort of Ford over the past few years, I think the more analytical, business-focused, ROI, etc and strategic moves (by Ford) arguments have been warranted as the company has really been in a position to only concentrate on the core lineup and what the vast majority of the buying public wants, while forgoing smaller more niche products until the house is in order, so to speak. Now that the brand and company are healthier, I believe we will see more niche products - like Bronco - in the pipeline, as they can afford to branch out now into areas they simply couldn't afford to target over the past few years. Bottom line is, there's nothing wrong with looking at it from both a business standpoint (what's feasible, etc), and a personal opinion/want standpoint. Just don't try to present it as a be all, end all viewpoint (barring irrefutable evidence, of course). We are all here to have a good time talking about a brand/company we love and want to see succeed, let's not ruin it with petty arguments. --- I usually don't chime in quite like that, I typically just kinda keep it to myself on this topic, but figured I'd make my thoughts known....I'll get off the soapbox now haha 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I dont think its so much of moderating others, rather moderating ourselves. Been on this since late 90's and would interact much more but its becoming more about personalities than anything else. Its like if you state the wrong "personal" comment, some come out to pounce on you, with a touch of "Oh I know more, you dont", and if it's anything negative, its easily to dismiss you as being a "negatard", YET some feel compelled to answer your post and challenge you on each post. State your personal opinion as you wish, and if someone feels the need to challenge you, or says otherwise just ignore or block them. Trust me, you will feel better when you see a whole screen of blocked out opinions and be able to share with those who respect you and not challenge you at all. It's not any different in other sites like Autoblog...I mean, I just post there and I have no clue who answering, or agree nor disagree, I never go back to it nor search for it and not engage in their high school tactics. After awhile you will see who you can have meaningful discussions with.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I barely make a peep? Really? You really ought to come out of your shell one of these days. We'd really like to know what you think. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-bird Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) I am and always have been a Ford driver. With that am always interested in whats happening with the company and use this forum as a source. Although not a regular poster as I am not a techy or involved with the company like many on here obviously are, I often feel I will be humiliated when commenting because of my lack of industry depth so therefore refrain. What I have seen is a lack of respect for others opinions. Posters called out most often because of disagreement. Its okay to disagree however do it with some respect for the others opinion. Example; If one feels another has not done their home work politely refer to the information source. Just my thoughts. Above all be respectful! Edited September 1, 2015 by T-bird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 As for Mr. Jensen, he too often becomes the center of a attention, and this shouldn’t happen. A job of a moderator is to keep things on topic and enforce the rules. A moderator shouldn’t dominate a discussion as he seems to do. Dunno what to tell you--I've never seen Richard use his authority as a moderator to dominate a discussion. I have seen him dominate discussions, but he does it through the force of logic or his personality, not through some power he has as a mod. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I am and always have been a Ford driver. With that am always interested in whats happening with the company and use this forum as a source. Although not a regular poster as I am not a techy or involved with the company like many on here obviously are, I often feel I will be humiliated when commenting because of my lack of industry depth so therefore refrain. Don't worry, I learned most of my industry information from here over the past 18 years or so this site has been around 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I barely make a peep? Really? There’s a difference about expressing your thoughts and being a moderator. I speak from experience. A few years back I was a moderator at another forum (not car-based). It’s a thankless job, moderating a forum. You have to keep folks in line but create an atmosphere that is open enough for a civil discussion to take place. Most folks hate you. You’re more or less a cop, enforcing the rules. I rarely expressed my opinion when was a moderator, I didn’t see that as my function. The idea for a moderator having an alter-ego isn’t mine, I’ve seen that used on other forums. The moderator uses one ID to moderate, and another ID to offer opinions. It may seem clumsy but can work quite well. Just a suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I never understood the "moderators have to be neutral" rule. I think people only say that when they don't agree with what the moderator is saying. Besides, people know the moderators already. I think it's only a problem when people perceive that the moderator is being overbearing and overmoderating (nobody here can be accused of that) and it turns personal. Otherwise we're regular posters 99% of the time. I've moderated the Edge and Fusion forums for several years with no real problems. You just have to make sure you follow your own rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I never understood the "moderators have to be neutral" rule. I think people only say that when they don't agree with what the moderator is saying. Besides, people know the moderators already. Being a moderator is a thankless (if even that) job, and I've seen this happen on countless forums over the year. I think Richard (And akirby) does a fine job. Who wants a moderator who is uninterested or uninvolved in the topics? Heavy handed? If anything BON has a history of allowing problem posters to stick around longer than most forums. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Thanks. I think the heavy handed comment was sarcasm. We do need to be a better job reining in the endless arguing. Especially when we're in the middle of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) I'm going to chime in here and say that I have no problem with any of what has been said so far furthermore i'm going to give example of why. When I posted on the Bronco / Ranger thread about the majority of SUV buyers being women and the majority of truck buyers being men I was at first called the angry guy from Arkansas and then after that told that I was being sarcastic and thus I should expect sarcasm in return. There was absolutely nothing sarcastic in my post. I was just stating my point of view. It was not intended to be sarcastic nor was it directed at any particular person on this forum. It was just a point of view, plain and simple and yet I was ridiculed for it. That is exactly the sort of thing that gets the arguments started around here as it would on just about any forum. It happens a lot around here. Personally I would love to just sit around and discuss Ford and other cars in general. Everyone give their point of view and that be it. I really don't care if some of you guys think a new pickup truck should be on a uni-body chassis. I think its a bad idea but so what, that's just what I think. If you think it's a good idea than that is what you think. We can all say what we think and leave it at that. The problems start when someone says what they think and a certain core group around here takes offense to it and starts with the insults. There's no need for it. Just say what you think about the idea or the product and move on. So I agree with that idea and I think that's how we should proceed. Just my two cents. Oh and I just wanted to add that yes it is a thankless job being a moderator. Edited September 1, 2015 by BlackHorse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) We all need to learn the difference between stating an opinion and stating a fact. Or stating an opinion as if it was a fact. This is where a lot of the arguments come from. e.g. Saying that Ford should import T6 Ranger implies a business benefit for Ford that can easily be argued against using common sense and basic financial estimates. Saying "I would really like it if Ford imported the T6 Ranger" is simply expressing a personal preference and nobody can argue with that. If you spend half your posts trying to either explain what you said or explain why you didn't mean it that way, you're probably using the wrong words to begin with. The more clear the communication the less opportunity for misunderstanding. And this applies to everyone. Edited September 1, 2015 by akirby 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stentgraft95 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 My two cents worth and clearly I don’t post a lot. I’m a huge Ford fan and I have been for years, I’ve been coming here many times weekly for nearly 10 years but I learned early on that my blind support of Ford and my opinions mean very little here. This place is my number 1 go-to site for Ford rumors and upcoming products and I’ve sent countless people here but again I don’t feel welcome to jump into conversations so I simply absorb information and try to keep my mouth shut. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-bird Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 My two cents worth and clearly I don’t post a lot. I’m a huge Ford fan and I have been for years, I’ve been coming here many times weekly for nearly 10 years but I learned early on that my blind support of Ford and my opinions mean very little here. This place is my number 1 go-to site for Ford rumors and upcoming products and I’ve sent countless people here but again I don’t feel welcome to jump into conversations so I simply absorb information and try to keep my mouth shut. My thoughts exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 My $0.02. There is clearly a clique on this forum. You're in it or you're not. If you're not, you're pretty much wrong, no matter what you say. Anyone that disagrees with the above is probably in that clique which is why they can't see it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Do you feel that way because you fear a personal attack? Or do you just feel it would start an argument? Or something else? If it's something we can control then point it out and we'll try to help. We don't know people feel this way unless you tell us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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