Ford recalls 442k vehicles.

[blazerdude20]

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/27/ford-mustang-ecoboost-flex-taurus-fusion-lincoln-mks-mkt-recall/

[blwnsmoke]

Yup, another recall for P/S issues where they are trying to pass this off with a reflash to avoid replacing all the steering racks. As blue as my blood is, I'm disgusted by how Ford is handling this issue.

 

They state the problem is an electrical connection yet software is going to fix this?? Of course not because they state IF it does not fix it, replace the rack. Well duh, STOP trying to bandaid the situation and replace the racks before you continue to stick people with the bill for replacing the racks.

 

I would HIGHLY recommend anyone who falls in with this recall to NOT get the reflash. Once reflashed with no codes stored, Ford has met their recall obligations and will stick you with the repair bill for the EPAS system to be replaced if it fails after the reflash.

[fordmantpw]

Yup, another recall for P/S issues where they are trying to pass this off with a reflash to avoid replacing all the steering racks. As blue as my blood is, I'm disgusted by how Ford is handling this issue.

 

They state the problem is an electrical connection yet software is going to fix this?? Of course not because they state IF it does not fix it, replace the rack. Well duh, STOP trying to bandaid the situation and replace the racks before you continue to stick people with the bill for replacing the racks.

 

I would HIGHLY recommend anyone who falls in with this recall to NOT get the reflash. Once reflashed with no codes stored, Ford has met their recall obligations and will stick you with the repair bill for the EPAS system to be replaced if it fails after the reflash.

 

Dude, are you just blowing smoke? Read the article closely, and reason a little bit about what the software will do before jumping to conclusions. Sheesh!

 

 

According to the company, an intermittent electrical connection can cause the power steering to cut out, although manual steering would still work. Ford knows of four minor accidents from this issue, but there are no injuries. Depending on trouble codes from the vehicle, dealers will either upgrade software for the power steering control module or replace the steering gear.

 

Makes sense that they would fix the intermittent connection, then, if codes don't show that the steering gear needs replaced, they upgrade the software (presumably to look for the specific issue that the recall is for...an intermittent connection). If the codes show the steering gear needs replaced, they replace it. It's not a 'reporgram first to see if that fixes it' type of deal.

[blwnsmoke]

 

Dude, are you just blowing smoke? Read the article closely, and reason a little bit about what the software will do before jumping to conclusions. Sheesh!

 

 

 

Makes sense that they would fix the intermittent connection, then, if codes don't show that the steering gear needs replaced, they upgrade the software (presumably to look for the specific issue that the recall is for...an intermittent connection). If the codes show the steering gear needs replaced, they replace it. It's not a 'reporgram first to see if that fixes it' type of deal.

 

1) Why is it people have to try and make lame jokes based on my screen name?

 

2) Did you read the article because it seems like you didn't? This is just like the Explorer recall that they had on the EPAS system.

Step 1 - Recalled vehicle goes into dealership and dealer checks for codes.

Step 2 - If no codes are present, they will flash with updated software. If codes are present, continue to step 3.

Step 3 - EPAS system will be replaced.

 

Straight from the article:

 

"Dealers will perform one of two service fixes, depending upon whether certain diagnostic trouble codes are present in the vehicle. They will either update software for the power steering control module or replace the steering gear."

 

DEPENDING UPON WHETHER CERTAIN DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLES CODES ARE PRESENT....

 

Guess what, if there are no codes present, the software is updated.. they are not going to replace the rack if no codes are found.. commons sense!!

 

Jumping to conclusions?? Absolutely not.. I've seen first hand customers getting bent over by Ford because this "software reflash" is a patch job and leaves customers with a $1,800 EPAS replacement bill because the recall was already met be the reflash.

 

People can hate on me all they want for my comments on this or try to twist my name and make ridiculous jokes but my family is a Blue Oval only family (6 Fords between my wife and I) and I take these joke repairs seriously as I have EPAS in my Explorer.

 

And let me be clear in my beliefs.. It is one thing for Ford to say, "hey let us reflash it and if you have a failure afterwards we will replace it" but that is not how Ford has been handling it. If you get the reflash and then you have a failure AFTER, the repair is on you out of your pocket.

Edited May 27, 2015 by blwnsmoke

[fordmantpw]

1) Why is it people have to try and make lame jokes based on my screen name?

 

It wasn't a joke, it was a serious question. Just happened to fit.

 

 

2) Did you read the article because it seems like you didn't? This is just like the Explorer recall that they had on the EPAS system.

Step 1 - Recalled vehicle goes into dealership and dealer checks for codes.

Step 2 - If no codes are present, Depending on trouble codes from the vehicle,they will flash with updated software. If codes are present, Depending on trouble codes from the vehicle,continue to step 3.

Step 3 - EPAS system will be replaced.

 

Um, yes, I read it. I fixed your misreading of the article with an actual quote from the article.

 

So, you are saying that Ford should replace every EPAS system, even if no codes are present indicating that there was a problem? Because that's what it sounds like. If that's what you are advocating, then that is just damned ridiculous.

 

You do know that 'intermittent electrical connection' could just be a loose wire and the proper fix could just be to ensure the wire is plugged in correctly, not to replace the EPAS unit, right?

 

I'm not hating on you, just trying to understand why you are seemingly blowing this out of proportion.

 

Oh, and recalls are not typically meant to save customers money, they are meant to ensure the vehicle is safe for the customer to drive. A lot of people seem to get those two mixed up.

[akirby]

I believe the other problems addressed with software fixes were different (not loose electrical connections). What happens is the recall is applied with new software, then a few months later the part fails (out of warranty) but because the recall was deemed successful due to the software update Ford refuses to cover the repair.

 

If they would simply extend the warranty on the rack it wouldn't be an issue.

[blwnsmoke]

I believe the other problems addressed with software fixes were different (not loose electrical connections). What happens is the recall is applied with new software, then a few months later the part fails (out of warranty) but because the recall was deemed successful due to the software update Ford refuses to cover the repair.

 

If they would simply extend the warranty on the rack it wouldn't be an issue.

 

This right there makes 100% sense and I completely agree. A simple extension of the warranty would suffice and I think would smooth over many disgruntled customers going through this right now.

 

Granted I have an ESP covering me to 125,000 on my Explorer BUT that doesn't mean that I don't worry about the failure of it with my wife driving with my 1 and 4 year old in the car.

[blazerdude20]

 

This right there makes 100% sense and I completely agree. A simple extension of the warranty would suffice and I think would smooth over many disgruntled customers going through this right now.

 

Granted I have an ESP covering me to 125,000 on my Explorer BUT that doesn't mean that I don't worry about the failure of it with my wife driving with my 1 and 4 year old in the car.

It's not as though Ford hasn't done this before. They've extended the DCT in the focus to 100k/7 years and the PCM to 150k.

[blwnsmoke]

 

It wasn't a joke, it was a serious question. Just happened to fit.

 

 

 

Um, yes, I read it. I fixed your misreading of the article with an actual quote from the article.

 

So, you are saying that Ford should replace every EPAS system, even if no codes are present indicating that there was a problem? Because that's what it sounds like. If that's what you are advocating, then that is just damned ridiculous.

 

You do know that 'intermittent electrical connection' could just be a loose wire and the proper fix could just be to ensure the wire is plugged in correctly, not to replace the EPAS unit, right?

 

I'm not hating on you, just trying to understand why you are seemingly blowing this out of proportion.

 

Oh, and recalls are not typically meant to save customers money, they are meant to ensure the vehicle is safe for the customer to drive. A lot of people seem to get those two mixed up.

 

Maybe I am crazy or just overlooking something but my quote from Ford's press release states the following (quote directly from press release):

 

 

 

Dealers will perform one of two service fixes, depending upon whether certain diagnostic trouble codes are present in the vehicle. They will either update software for the power steering control module or replace the steering gear.

 

You are posting "depending on trouble codes from the vehicle" which is not what it says.. it says depending on whether they are found. Your quote reflects that there are codes present but it may vary on which ones pop up which is not what they are saying.

 

It says depending on whether certain codes are found.. which translates to, there may be no codes.

 

Now strictly my opinion but if there are no codes, Ford is going to do the reflash just like they did with the Explorer. If codes are found, they are going to replace the EPAS. Now again, this is strictly MY opinion BUT this is based on factual information from how they handled it with the Explorers.

 

Ford had issues with electrical connections as well (harnesses as well as the boards at the wrong angle on the assembly plant which allowed the solder to drop or run down the board not securing the connection).

 

I had discussed this in a previous thread a little while back but I'll state my opinion again. If there is physically a connection issue (wire harness, soldering etc), a software reflash is not going to solve this and still leaves a customer with a greater chance of failure then if it was built correctly to spec. They have build dates for these units so it is not like they have to extend a fix to every customer who owns the vehicles.. they should be covering the owners within those build dates though.

 

As Akirby stated, an extended warranty on that part would do a lot for customers perception of Ford. Just like with the APIM with the 5yr unlimited mile warranty extension, they could do that as well for all the Ford owner's whose vehicles are subject to these recalls.

Edited May 27, 2015 by blwnsmoke

[fordmantpw]

If they would simply extend the warranty on the rack it wouldn't be an issue.

 

True, but that does nothing for the safety factor.

 

 

Granted I have an ESP covering me to 125,000 on my Explorer BUT that doesn't mean that I don't worry about the failure of it with my wife driving with my 1 and 4 year old in the car.

 

Bingo! An extended warranty does nothing in that case. Remember, failure of EPAS doesn't mean no steering, it just gets more difficult. At speed, it's generally not an issue, but lower speed parking-lot maneuvers means it's more harder to turn the wheel.

[blwnsmoke]

It's not as though Ford hasn't done this before. They've extended the DCT in the focus to 100k/7 years and the PCM to 150k.

 

Again, completely agree with you as well that Ford has done this in the past. But as of now, they are not. And in the Explorer forum that I posted, people are being hit with $1,500-$1,800 repairs because the "software reflash" did not prevent the failure.

 

Is Ford supposed to warranty it for life? Absolutely not but they should not be sticking the bill to the customer 10 months after the reflash. Hell there was one guy that had the EPAS system failure pulling out of the dealerships parking lot from having the reflash done. What did Ford say?? That the customer is responsible for the repair because no codes were present at the time of the reflash. Really?? A failure not more then 1 minute after the reflash and it is now the customer's responsibility??

[blwnsmoke]

 

True, but that does nothing for the safety factor.

 

 

 

Bingo! An extended warranty does nothing in that case. Remember, failure of EPAS doesn't mean no steering, it just gets more difficult. At speed, it's generally not an issue, but lower speed parking-lot maneuvers means it's more harder to turn the wheel.

 

You know what's very comical.. There have been hundreds of complaints to the NHTSA in regards to the Explorer failures (prior to the recall) and Ford released a response to the NHTSA that states that they do not consider it a safety issue since the vehicle resorts to manual steering (they were doing everything possible to avoid a recall). They also stated that it is not a safety issue because the vehicle alerts the driver that it is failing so it is not a surprise. LOL, that part was very comical because it's not like it says in 15 seconds, you will lose power assist steering".. When the failure alerts you, it has already failed, there is no warning. Then more and more complaints came in.. one owner ended up hitting a telephone pole because they lost steering on a bend in the road.. and now magically Ford has change their tune and consider it a safety issue.

 

Have you tried steering one of these vehicles without EPAS working? It is extremely difficult and there are many women who have complained that they could barely move the steering wheel as if it locked up.

 

Now I realize I'm going off topic because this isn't an Explorer recall but it looks identical to the Explorer recall. Not only that, even 2015 Explorer's have still experience these failures. So if the 2015 models are still experiencing them, then there clearly is still some sort of defect in them. Why should a 2011 or 2012 owner outside their 3yr/36k warranty be responsible for a steering rack when they are still failing on the current model year?

 

If Ford hasn't figured out the issue, then find, so be it and state that. But do not put their customers on the hook for a very costly repair when clearly there are still issues with these units.

Edited May 27, 2015 by blwnsmoke

[akirby]

Just to be clear, the software update won't prevent the problem from occurring - it just keeps it from going into fail-safe mode while the vehicle is at speed so that you still have power steering assist with warnings. It doesn't really address the actual failure of the rack itself.

 

But in this case the best path would seem to be to NOT have the recall done until you actually have a failure so that the part is replaced under the recall at no cost.

 

That's the screwy part.

[akirby]

 

LOL, that part was very comical because it's not like it says in 15 seconds, you will lose power assist steering".. When the failure alerts you, it has already failed, there is no warning.

 

That's not what it says. It says it will give a warning but will NOT cut power to the module so you won't lose steering assist until you shut off the vehicle.

[fordmantpw]

You are posting "depending on trouble codes from the vehicle" which is not what it says.. it says depending on whether they are found. Your quote reflects that there are codes present but it may vary on which ones pop up which is not what they are saying.

 

It says depending on whether certain codes are found.. which translates to, there may be no codes.

 

Now strictly my opinion but if there are no codes, Ford is going to do the reflash just like they did with the Explorer. If codes are found, they are going to replace the EPAS. Now again, this is strictly MY opinion BUT this is based on factual information from how they handled it with the Explorers.

 

The word CERTAIN is important here. What I quoted was from the article, not Ford's press release, but it is the same thing you are quoting. If CERTAIN codes are found, which means there may be some codes that don't warrant replacement of the EPAS.

 

 

I had discussed this in a previous thread a little while back but I'll state my opinion again. If there is physically a connection issue (wire harness, soldering etc), a software reflash is not going to solve this and still leaves a customer with a greater chance of failure then if it was built correctly to spec. They have build dates for these units so it is not like they have to extend a fix to every customer who owns the vehicles.. they should be covering the owners within those build dates though.

 

No, a reflash will not fix a physical problem on the vehicle. But, it may allow less tolerance or something along those lines to help protect the equipment (and therefore the occupants). Software isn't cut and dry.

[akirby]

Here is the bottom line - the software will not prevent the failure. If the part fails before you have the recall done it's free. If it happens after the recall you pay for it. That doesn't make sense because the software does nothing to prevent the failure.

[blwnsmoke]

Just to be clear, the software update won't prevent the problem from occurring - it just keeps it from going into fail-safe mode while the vehicle is at speed so that you still have power steering assist with warnings. It doesn't really address the actual failure of the rack itself.

 

But in this case the best path would seem to be to NOT have the recall done until you actually have a failure so that the part is replaced under the recall at no cost.

 

That's the screwy part.

Exactly.

 

And for clarification, I know this is what Ford has told people but this is not the case. People on the Explorer forum have had the recall done, had the failure/warning and still lost EPAS defaulting to manual mode.

 

I believe you were part of the discussion on this a little while back and I think it was mentioned in that other thread that the reflash was supposed to prevent it from going into full failure but from owners posts, this is not the case. There are a few that had it happen about 10 months after the reflash. Here is what one member stated

 

 

 

I'm going through this exact situation now with my Explorer. I received a recall notice a while ago and took my car in right away for the software fix. Not long after that, I started having problems where intermittently when I was turning I would really have to manhandle the steering wheel but no codes came up on the dashboard.

 

Two weeks ago I took it in for an oil change service and mentioned to them the problem I was having. They said they would take a look at it and reported back that there didn't seem to be any problem. Then last Friday I went out to take my son to school and right after turning the car on I got the Power Steering Assist Fault error and couldn't turn the steering wheel. From that point I didn't feel comfortable even trying to drive it so I had it towed to the dealership.

[akirby]

Well that sucks even more.

[blwnsmoke]

 

That's not what it says. It says it will give a warning but will NOT cut power to the module so you won't lose steering assist until you shut off the vehicle.

 

I think you are confusing this part in what this was referencing to. Back when the Explorers started having the EPAS failures and prior to Ford finally issuing a recall on them, Ford stated to the NHTSA that they do not consider an EPAS failure a safety issue (therefore they don't feel they should recall them) because it alerts the driver of the failure.

 

Ford later changed their stance on it and issued a recall on the Explorers.

 

The argument from us owners was, it does not give you a warning prior to failure, it gives you a warning when it fails therefore there is no advance warning to prepare a driver for manual assist steering.

 

Edited: I'll post Ford's response shortly, stay tuned.

Edited May 27, 2015 by blwnsmoke

[fordmantpw]

It would be interesting to know the true failure rate. I mean, parts on cars fail all the time and they aren't covered under warranty. How big of a deal is this really? I'm not minimizing it, just would be interesting to compare it to failed power steering pumps or A/C compressors or the like.

[blwnsmoke]

So back in 2012 when everyone was complaining of the failures and Ford had a 2-3 month backorder of the EPAS replacement systems, Ford's response to the NHTSA:

 

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM425907/INRL-PE12017-52566.pdf

 

1st page - in the unlikely even of loss of power steering assist, the steering system will default to manual steering mode allowing the vehicle to be steered in a safe and controlled manner. Also that we are clearly informed of a change in the status.

 

(both of those are a joke in my opinion).

 

Ford's response to the issues that they found:

 

1) Ribbon cable conforming coating - conveyor was tilted at 3 degrees which allowed the conformal coat to run away.

2) Ribbon cable pin misalignment - because of moving equipment, the ribbon may have been misaligned during assembly.

3) Relay contacts - during cleaning process, corrosion could build up in voids between the copper and silver layers.

 

Essentially to sum up the above 3 issues, everything produced after 5/10/2012 has had all 3 issues fixed.

 

BUT WHY DO THESE FAILURES KEEP HAPPENING EVEN ON THE 2015 MY?? And not only that, why are they happening on more and more other models. Clearly there is something going on here.. this is more then just a coincidence.

 

(This is their 1st response. There is another that I will post soon as I need to dig some more for it).

Edited May 27, 2015 by blwnsmoke

[blwnsmoke]

It would be interesting to know the true failure rate. I mean, parts on cars fail all the time and they aren't covered under warranty. How big of a deal is this really? I'm not minimizing it, just would be interesting to compare it to failed power steering pumps or A/C compressors or the like.

 

We all know that people go on forums to post problems rather then praise of a vehicle so it is expected to see a lot of negative posts. But the fact that (at least Explorers) there are 966 posts with 49 pages dealing just with EPAS failures on the explorer forum.. this is a big problem. I will state that since they fixed the 3 issues above, I know the rate has dropped but it is still happening. And just because my Explorer didn't exhibit the defective flaws while under factory warranty, why should I have to pay the bill if it does show up? I fall within the date ranges BUT it just hasn't happened yet. Ford admits there were 3 issues at the time that were causing these failures. In regards to the 3 issues found during the manufacturing process, an owner should not be responsible for a failure out of pocket IMO.

 

Ford has admitted "yup, we found 3 issues" but if the customer is outside the 3yr/36k, they are on their own. Does that really sound like the correct response from Ford (or any other manufacturer)?

[blwnsmoke]

I was just on the NHTSA and there are 350 complaints for "power steering" for the 11-15MY Explorers. Now I don't know how many is considered a lot but how many people don't go on forums and don't know to report an issue to the NHTSA?

[blwnsmoke]

2nd response from Ford

 

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM440364/INRL-PE12017-57026P.pdf

 

"Ford continues to believe that loss of power steering assist in the subject vehicles does not present an unreasonable safety risk in these vehicles..."

 

I think Ford decided to finally issue the recall because all the other manufacturers were pushing recalls left and right and while the press were on all the recalls, they slipped this one in. Why continue to deny that this is a safety issue (for several years) and then start putting out all these "safety recalls" on the EPAS systems??

Edited May 27, 2015 by blwnsmoke

[silvrsvt]

I was just on the NHTSA and there are 350 complaints for "power steering" for the 11-15MY Explorers. Now I don't know how many is considered a lot but how many people don't go on forums and don't know to report an issue to the NHTSA?

 

the problem is that internet forums become an echo chamber repeating the same shit or complaining about that said shit so it looks bigger than it actually is.

 

I haven't heard of any EPAS issues with the SHO/MKS Ecoboost pages I visit....but I do need to get my car in for the two other recalls that are pending on it (prop shaft inspection and the rear license plate lights)