Hypothetical Build - F150 hybrid or Diesel?

[jpd80]

Recently, there have been some lively debates as to whether Ford should be providing an efficient smaller diesel

in F150/Expedition and depending on engine size chosen, possible use on Super Duty as well.

With talk of Ford developing a possible hybrid maybe it's time we throw open the discussion on diesel versus hybrid...

 

 

The brief is simple,

Your are a senior executive at Ford who has been told to develop a fuel efficient power train option

for F150, the expected premium will be $5,000 to $8,000 depending on the components chosen

you can choose either an efficient diesel or a gasoline hybrid power train option. A diesel hybrid

power train is still financially beyond you at over $12,000 it is risky but offers superior economy.

 

Engines;

You are able to select from any of Ford's current diesel engines including Lion V6 and V8s

the 440 lb ft 3.0 V6 is $6,000 premium while the 4.4 V8 is an $8,000 premium. The older

470 lb ft version of the 3.6 Lion V8 is available for sale at a $5,000 premium

 

Power train;

You are able to select current 6-speed and 10-speed auto power trains are available

 

Hybrid;

You are able to select either 3.5 DI V6 or a newly created 5.0 DI V8 as the engine.

 

Hybrid transmission

a newer larger version of the Electric hybrid drive, now available with two drive motors that deliver

300 hp and 300 lb ft when used together. The driving wheels and choice of 2WD or AWD is up to you.

 

 

- Select which combination you feel offers the best opportunity to Ford for sustainability and return on investment,

- Who is your target audience and why.

- Is more than one diesel or hybrid combination warranted?

 

 

Discuss...

Edited March 28, 2015 by jpd80

[mackinaw]

Already answered. They’re currently testing a 3.0 V6 diesel for introduction during the 2017 model year.

[NLPRacing]

I was thinking an F150 Energi (plug in hybrid) with a 2.3L EcoBoost would make sense.

[YT90SC]

Neither. 2.7 Eco (still with start/stop and A-DFSO) with the hydraulic hybrid componentry that was under development a few years ago.

[jpd80]

My choice would be a hybrid F150 that copies most of Bob Lutz's Via Motors Electric Silverado but at a more affordable price.

- 3.5 DI V6

- 23 kWh battery (40 miles)

- 2 x drive motors (300 lb ft)

- On the run recharging "Mountain Mode"

 

The basic truck starts out with 3.5 DI V6 and an upgraded Electric VCT that includes a second 150 lb ft drive motor

allowing 300 lb ft torque. the basic hybrid battery is a 23 kWh batteries from the Focus EV, giving the truck a 40 mile

electric range. The truck incorporates an "on the run" charging mode that approximates Voltec "Mountain mode"

 

If Ford could get this vehicle done at around an $8,000 premium and combine a simpler smaller battery hybrid truck below it

for around $5,000, I think it would have the market cornered in a segment that would truly appreciate the worth of electric

range and efficient use of hybrid technology.

 

I'm also pretty certain that Ford could get financial assistance from DOE to develop a truck like this...

Edited March 29, 2015 by jpd80

[mustang_sallad]

My choice would be a hybrid F150 that copies most of Bob Lutz's Via Motors Electric Silverado but at a more affordable price.

- 3.5 DI V6

- 23 kWh battery (40 miles)

- 2 x drive motors (300 lb ft)

- On the run recharging "Mountain Mode"

 

The basic truck starts out with 3.5 DI V6 and an upgraded Electric VCT that includes a second 150 lb ft drive motor

allowing 300 lb ft torque. the basic hybrid battery is a 23 kWh batteries from the Focus EV, giving the truck a 40 mile

electric range. The truck incorporates an "on the run" charging mode that approximates Voltec "Mountain mode"

 

If Ford could get this vehicle done at around an $8,000 premium and combine a simpler smaller battery hybrid truck below it

for around $5,000, I think it would have the market cornered in a segment that would truly appreciate the worth of electric

range and efficient use of hybrid technology.

 

I'm also pretty certain that Ford could get financial assistance from DOE to develop a truck like this...

 

Agreed. On paper at least, Via's got a very compelling product, aside from the price. Ford could do a better job if they did it in house and leveraged their existing plug-in products.

[jpd80]

 

Agreed. On paper at least, Via's got a very compelling product, aside from the price. Ford could do a better job if they did it in house and leveraged their existing plug-in products.

Yeah, that's what I thought too.

Done right, there's no way a truck like that should cost anywhere near $79K nor should it weigh 7500 lbs either...

and it should have at least AWD capability.

[Biker16]

My choice would be a hybrid F150 that copies most of Bob Lutz's Via Motors Electric Silverado but at a more affordable price.

- 3.5 DI V6

- 23 kWh battery (40 miles)

- 2 x drive motors (300 lb ft)

- On the run recharging "Mountain Mode"

 

The basic truck starts out with 3.5 DI V6 and an upgraded Electric VCT that includes a second 150 lb ft drive motor

allowing 300 lb ft torque. the basic hybrid battery is a 23 kWh batteries from the Focus EV, giving the truck a 40 mile

electric range. The truck incorporates an "on the run" charging mode that approximates Voltec "Mountain mode"

 

If Ford could get this vehicle done at around an $8,000 premium and combine a simpler smaller battery hybrid truck below it

for around $5,000, I think it would have the market cornered in a segment that would truly appreciate the worth of electric

range and efficient use of hybrid technology.

 

I'm also pretty certain that Ford could get financial assistance from DOE to develop a truck like this...

Keep in mind the cost of batteries in $160-220 per kWh you battery could cost up to $5,000.

 

I cannot understand why we would you offer a powertrain that is powerful and efficient? isn't the goal to make an efficient powertrain first not to break 0 to 60 records?

 

This is in a nutshell the problem with the ford hybrids vs Toyota hybrids, Toyota isn't expecting Prius buyers complain about performance because they are buying the vehicle for economy. Fleet buyers are the same way cost of operation is a priority over maximum capability.

 

So back to the f-series, why does a entry level diesel or hybrid powertrain need over 200hp and over 350lbs of torque If the goal is maximum economy?

 

How much less capable is an truck with 200hp 350ftlbs at 3000rpm, vs the base 3.5V6 with 282hp and 252ft/lbs at 4300rpm?

 

Will buyers pay a premium for more torque and fuel economy but less hp? it depends on price.

[jpd80]

Keep in mind the cost of batteries in $160-220 per kWh you battery could cost up to $5,000.

 

I cannot understand why we would you offer a powertrain that is powerful and efficient? isn't the goal to make an efficient powertrain first not to break 0 to 60 records?

 

This is in a nutshell the problem with the ford hybrids vs Toyota hybrids, Toyota isn't expecting Prius buyers complain about performance because they are buying the vehicle for economy. Fleet buyers are the same way cost of operation is a priority over maximum capability.

 

So back to the f-series, why does a entry level diesel or hybrid powertrain need over 200hp and over 350lbs of torque If the goal is maximum economy?

 

How much less capable is an truck with 200hp 350ftlbs at 3000rpm, vs the base 3.5V6 with 282hp and 252ft/lbs at 4300rpm?

 

Will buyers pay a premium for more torque and fuel economy but less hp? it depends on price.

Here's the picture as I see it in a nutshell:

Ford currently offers a 3.2 diesel (200 hp/350 lb ft) in Transit as a $6000 option

Via Motors offers a 3.6 V6 Hybrid Silverado with 40 mile electric range for $79,000

 

The hybrid package I suggested goes so close to matching the $79,000 truck without costing anything like that.

While Ford could offer a 3.2 diesel for $6,000 or maybe the 4.4 V8 diesel for $8,000 (similar to 6.7 in SD)

offering an F150 with up to 40 miles of electric range has huge appeal to a lot of existing truck buyers that

do a commute with a round trip of between 40 to 80 miles a day..especially if they ccan recharge at work.

 

and sure, such a large battery is going to be expensive as a basic hybrid could possibly get by with

a battery that a tenth of the size...There's a lot of latitude with battery size there so perhaps it more

like starting out with a more basic hybrid with smaller lower cost battery and then offer an energi above it.

Edited March 31, 2015 by jpd80

[chucky2]

I wonder how much less the 3.2 cost becomes if it's offered in F-150 volumes. They're already making $ on it as it's a premium option (those who want a diesel pay for a diesel, and the OEMs know that and price accordingly), one wonders what the true cost really is...

[Biker16]

Here's the picture as I see it in a nutshell:

Ford currently offers a 3.2 diesel (200 hp/350 lb ft) in Transit as a $6000 option

Via Motors offers a 3.6 V6 Hybrid Silverado with 40 mile electric range for $79,000

 

The hybrid package I suggested goes so close to matching the $79,000 truck without costing anything like that.

While Ford could offer a 3.2 diesel for $6,000 or maybe the 4.4 V8 diesel for $8,000 (similar to 6.7 in SD)

offering an F150 with up to 40 miles of electric range has huge appeal to a lot of existing truck buyers that

do a commute with a round trip of between 40 to 80 miles a day..especially if they ccan recharge at work.

 

and sure, such a large battery is going to be expensive as a basic hybrid could possibly get by with

a battery that a tenth of the size...There's a lot of latitude with battery size there so perhaps it more

like starting out with a more basic hybrid with smaller lower cost battery and then offer an energi above it.

 

pricing is key. no one here knows how much the 3.2 TDCI costs, we only know how much Ford charges for it.

 

I wonder how much less the 3.2 cost becomes if it's offered in F-150 volumes. They're already making $ on it as it's a premium option (those who want a diesel pay for a diesel, and the OEMs know that and price accordingly), one wonders what the true cost really is...

 

good question.

[papilgee4evaeva]

So back to the f-series, why does a entry level diesel or hybrid powertrain need over 200hp and over 350lbs of torque If the goal is maximum economy?

 

How much less capable is an truck with 200hp 350ftlbs at 3000rpm, vs the base 3.5V6 with 282hp and 252ft/lbs at 4300rpm?

 

Will buyers pay a premium for more torque and fuel economy but less hp? it depends on price.

 

1) Because trucks are ostensibly for working?

 

2) Depends on the load on the powertrain and the type of work being done.

 

3) I agree here. This was my objection with the last Edge and Explorer having the 2.0EB as a cost option over the standard D35. Lincoln seems to have averted this dilemma by offering the MKZ 2.0 and Hybrid at the same starting MSRP.

[jpd80]

More to the question, why has for resisted offering a diesel in F150 for so long and in fact

has now developed another small Ecoboost 2.7 V6 and marketing it against the Ram 1500 diesel.

 

It seems to me that Ford has gone to great pains to activly avoid diesel in F150 both at

- the 2010 MY engine changes where it chose Ecoboost 3.5 over a 4.4 V8 diesel (Ecoboost V6 now ~45% of F150 sales)

- the 2015 Engine line up where it chose 2.7 Ecoboost over either 3.0 V6 Lion or 3.2 I-5 diesel.(Federalized for USA use)

 

on top of that, Ford went so far as to seek out Toyota as a JV partner to develop hybrid systems for respective half ton trucks

but then ended the JV when it realized that Ford's existing knowledge and data was well in advance of what Toyota had.

 

Botom line here is that yes, a diesel would work in F150 and probably work better than it does in the heavier Ram 1500

the only conclusion I can draw is that Ford has 100% committed to Ecoboost in F150 and now fears that any diesel options

would simply divide existing sales, add complexity to the range and not improve overall profitability or retunr on invenstment

without a hefty premium...

 

On the other hand, offering a hybrid half ton truck may give Ford a decided advantage by allowing Ford to combine and modify

existing engineering modules and suppliers that also puts next generation technology within reach of ordinary buyers and also

delivers a true point of difference with competitors.

Edited March 31, 2015 by jpd80

[fordmantpw]

Botom line here is that yes, a diesel would work in F150....any diesel options

would simply divide existing sales, add complexity to the range and not improve overall profitability or retunr on invenstment

without a hefty premium...

 

Bingo! If it doesn't increase sales/profitability, then it is pointless. Fiat needs it for CAFE. Ford does not.

[jpd80]

 

Bingo! If it doesn't increase sales/profitability, then it is pointless. Fiat needs it for CAFE. Ford does not.

The 3.0 Ecodiesel is also available in other FC products like Grand Cherokee and 300C, so the emissions qualification is already established and amortized.

 

In F150, the combined sales of V6 engines is more popular than the 5.0 V8 but Ford's competitors still rely heavily on

larger capacity v8s with varying degrees of VVT, Direct Injection and most importantly variable displacement strategies.

Customer perception? Moving those customers onto gasoline V6s may be much harder than possibly a diesel alternative..

Edited March 31, 2015 by jpd80

[OHV 16V]

Already answered. They’re currently testing a 3.0 V6 diesel for introduction during the 2017 model year.

Apparently everyone skipped over this. ^ Not a joke. ^

[jpd80]

Apparently everyone skipped over this. ^ Not a joke. ^

I do know that a 3.0 v6 diesel F150 was used as a benchmark in the developemnt of the 2.7 Ecoboost.

If Ford was developing it's own V6 diesel F150, then why would it be trying so hard to advocate the 2.7 EB as a diesel alternative.

 

Don't get me wrong a diesel does have distinct advantages but in this case, offering one against 2.7 Ecoboost seems non-sensical.

The focus seems to be on converting all those existing gasoline F150 owners/buyers to stay with gasoline and reap the benefits

of lower premium, better economy with similar performace to their older 5.4 3V trucks.

 

Adding a hybrid drive and small battery to the 3.5 DI would offer Ford an economical way of repositioning a base engine

as yet another economical gasoline version that possibly suits owners who use their truck much the same way as a large car.

Edited April 1, 2015 by jpd80

[Biker16]

I do know that a 3.0 v6 diesel F150 was used as a benchmark in the developemnt of the 2.7 Ecoboost.

If Ford was developing it's own V6 diesel F150, then why would it be trying so hard to advocate the 2.7 EB as a diesel alternative.

 

 

because Ford doesn't always have things perfectly planned out, they will sell what the have at the time until they have something better to sell.

[jpd80]

 

because Ford doesn't always have things perfectly planned out, they will sell what the have at the time until they have something better to sell.

The problem with diesels has always been the cost, not the availability and until that cost comes down significantly, you won;t see a diesel F150.

Not when they are charging $6,000 for the 3.2 I-5 that comes in Transit, an engine sourced for low cost South Africa by the way...

 

And then there's opportunity cost, the funding and resources spent on a diesel option versus investment in other areas with better return.

I would think that more than anything is what is blocking a diesel F150 and possibly improving the chances of somehting like a hybrid...

Edited April 1, 2015 by jpd80

[Biker16]

The problem with diesels has always been the cost, not the availability and until that cost comes down significantly, you won;t see a diesel F150.

Not when they are charging $6,000 for the 3.2 I-5 that comes in Transit, an engine sourced for low cost South Africa by the way...

 

And then there's opportunity cost, the funding and resources spent on a diesel option versus investment in other areas with better return.

I would think that more than anything is what is blocking a diesel F150 and possibly improving the chances of somehting like a hybrid...

 

we as lowly BON ers now nothing of the true costs of anything.

 

We hear that the ancient and low tech I5 is $6000 while the far more modern Fiat V6 is only $4000. We can only guess, but not know exactly why this is.

[Edstock]

We hear that the ancient and low tech I5 is $6000 while the far more modern Fiat V6 is only $4000. We can only guess, but not know exactly why this is.

 

Italian "accounting"?

[jpd80]

 

we as lowly BON ers now nothing of the true costs of anything.

 

We hear that the ancient and low tech I5 is $6000 while the far more modern Fiat V6 is only $4000. We can only guess, but not know exactly why this is.

1. Would Ram sell as many Ecodiesel V6s if they were priced higher?

 

2. The 3.2 I-5 diesel is not offered in F150, elsewhere it is a premium engine option in Transit and Ranger.

 

3. Ecoboost 2.7 is a $795 option. no doubt like Ram, Ford has priced this option keenly to encourage sales.

 

I think we have our answer.

Edited April 1, 2015 by jpd80

[jpd80]

Further ti the above, the other consideration here is Ram 1500's product mix of mostly V8s that deliver between 19 and 22 mpg in Hwy cycle,

The way CAFE averaging works means that Ram needs the much higher fuel economy of the diesel truck to offset the lower reading

achieved by heavier 4WD V8 versions.

 

The difference here is that Ford now has a lighter F150, broader use of V6 engines and no 6.2 option. That product mix has eliminated

all those sub 20 mpg trucks and delivered much higher CAFE average meaning Ford does not have the same need for a diesel in its range.

 

I suspect this is the motivation behind Ram offering their diesel at more affordable prices, Ram needs the diesel to stay in front of CAFE, Ford doesn't.

[fordmantpw]

 

Bingo! If it doesn't increase sales/profitability, then it is pointless. Fiat needs it for CAFE. Ford does not.

 

 

Further ti the above, the other consideration here is Ram 1500's product mix of mostly V8s that deliver between 19 and 22 mpg in Hwy cycle,

The way CAFE averaging works means that Ram needs the much higher fuel economy of the diesel truck to offset the lower reading

achieved by heavier 4WD V8 versions.

 

The difference here is that Ford now has a lighter F150, broader use of V6 engines and no 6.2 option. That product mix has eliminated

all those sub 20 mpg trucks and delivered much higher CAFE average meaning Ford does not have the same need for a diesel in its range.

 

I suspect this is the motivation behind Ram offering their diesel at more affordable prices, Ram needs the diesel to stay in front of CAFE, Ford doesn't.

 

I said that yesterday.

[RichardJensen]

 

we as lowly BON ers now nothing of the true costs of anything.

 

We hear that the ancient and low tech I5 is $6000 while the far more modern Fiat V6 is only $4000. We can only guess, but not know exactly why this is.

 

I think it's pretty obvious that Ford is making more profit on the I5.

Edited April 2, 2015 by RichardJensen