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Why no manual transmission option in light trucks?


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It's definitely getting worse and worse. I'm an oddball for my generation (millenial). I learned by growing up driving tractors and old trucks. There are many people my age who couldn't even tell you what a transmission does and don't really care to know either. "Why does your car have three pedals?"

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It does not cost more to special order a vehicle than to buy one off the lot, unless you're talking about something that's been sitting on the lot for a long time. I always special order and in some cases they'll give you a better deal because they get the sale but still have one on the lot for someone else to buy, so they can get 2 sales instead of one.

 

You keep trying to blame dealers but this falls squarely on the shoulders of the buying public. Just like wagons. They build them, nobody buys them so they stop building them and then everyone bitches about it.

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Any idea what trans Ram is currently putting behind the Cummins? I'd assume that it's the New Venture 5600 but who is making it now?

I *think* it's a legacy Mercedes-sourced model made in Brazil and used in MD trucks abroad. The CTD is limited to ~650 ft/lb tq.with that transmission, and with the Aisin automatic, it's what, ~850 ft/lb? I imagine that would make some reconsider a manual.

 

Those ZF transmissions were pure gold. The slave cylinders (who made them; Valeo?) were pure sh*t.

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From what I remember, the NV5600 was bullet proof. It was the very last major program I managed before retiring.

 

 

The current dodge RAM trucks utilize a G56 which is a Mercedes design manufactured either in Germany or Brazil. I do not know how long this will continue under Fiat but given the very low volume, they probably will not change it.

 

Regarding transfer cases versus manual transmissions, they are not the same type of parts. Transfer cases for the most part utilize planetary gearing to get low range and either have on demand torque device to transfer torque to the front axle or a full time torque split thru either a planetary differential or a bevel differential.The latest is to utilize electronics to modulate torque transfer or to do torque vectoring.

 

Manual transmissions utilize individual gears in mesh on parallel shafts. They are not like four wheel drive transfer cases and in many ways are much more difficult to make than transfer cases, short of the electronics.

 

You should also note that if any manuals are offered, the vehicle's towing rating is usually reduced compared to a similar automatic transmission vehicle.

 

Good Luck with you next pickup

 

Edselford

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You should also note that if any manuals are offered, the vehicle's towing rating is usually reduced compared to a similar automatic transmission vehicle.

 

That's something I've noticed but never understood. Why do the manufactures do this? Transmissions are rated for input torque. The maximum load bewteen the input and output shaft is determined entirely by what the engine puts out so I don't really know what difference it makes if you have 5000 or 10000 lbs hitched up. I don't really pay attention to what the owner's manual says - I just hitch up the trailer and go. I've been over the limit countless times on several trucks and didn't have to abuse the clutch or anything else. Mine have always held up good too. The worst was probably last summer when I put 2 yards of gravel in the back of my '95 F-250 and hitched up a dump trailer with another 3 yards in it. Tipped the scales at a little over 22,000 leaving the yard. The 4.9L six / ZF combo got it home no problem, albiet slowly. That isn't the only one i've abused with no ill affects either.

 

Since we're on this topic, I noticed that Ram was advertising their "highest in class" tow rating for the 1500 of 18,xxx lbs. Anyone who is willing to hitch 18,000 lbs up to a 1/2 ton chassis deserves what ever happens next. That or 1500s aren't really half tons anymore. 20 years ago the 1 tons had tow ratings of about 12,000 max depending on engine. The chassis on current half tons don't appear to be any where near as stout as found in 20 year old 1 tons so I'm not sure how the manufactures are rating them to tow such rediculous numbers.

Edited by Sevensecondsuv
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Rolling at 22k with a 95 F-250? I bet the DOT would love to get ahold of you...

 

Straight from their website, RAM lists the half ton towing capacity at 10.5k. Its their highest available tow rating in their chassis cabs that is 18k.

 

Just because something "doesn't appear" to be strong doesn't mean it isn't. The chassis construction of todays trucks is far and away better than 20 years ago. Much of it is due to material useage but also things like hydroforming, full boxing and weld thru cross members are things that were definitely NOT in use on a 20 year old 1 ton. And multi-pot brake calipers with EBD and anti sway control means that not only will you be able to get it moving, you will be able to stop it and safely handle it while in motion.

 

The new SAE tow rating standards take into account braking and the ability to get things moving and maintain speed or accelerate. They are not used across the board yet, but they will be eventually. Anyway, your old six, while a GREAT engine is still stuck at 260 lb ft on the input shaft. HOWEVER a torque convertor's ability to multiply torque can put north of 500 lb ft on its shaft, potentially making take off much faster.

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How many times have you heard of someone burning up a torque converter?

Several. Done it myself once in my F250 before I put the ZF in. That was another gravel hauling story. Turns out E4ODs can't take a 4.9L combined with several tons of gravel. To be fair, the trans had a little over 100,000 on it when it blew.

 

I think the moral of the story is that I need a dump truck.

 

For the record, the late EFI sixes were much closer to 300 ft-lb at the flywheel. 260 is the number for the earlier carbed versions.

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Rolling at 22k with a 95 F-250? I bet the DOT would love to get ahold of you...

 

Straight from their website, RAM lists the half ton towing capacity at 10.5k. Its their highest available tow rating in their chassis cabs that is 18K.

Ok. I must Have gotten that mixed up. Good to know.

 

Its also a good thing that the DOT isn't very present here in farm country. My 22k F250 story wasn't an isolated incident and I know of far worse offenders than anything I've tried.

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Did you burn up the tranny or the torque converter specifically? My point was the clutch is a weak link in a manual drivetrain because it's a friction connection while the torque converter doesn't have a physical connection at low speeds so it's much less likely to fail.

 

You can spec out a manual to handle towing heavy loads but the cost and weight go up accordingly. That's why manuals sometimes have lower tow ratings than automatics.

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You can't say 5-speed as a synonym for manual any more. Ranger, Explorer and Lincoln LS all came with a 5 speed automatic in the late 90s, early 2000s.

I say 5 speed because my cousin had an 02 (I think it was an 02) that had a 5 speed manual he had for years until he traded it in for a '13.

 

I remember him being slightly bummed he couldn't get a stick anymore, but was glad because his old truck seemed to go through clutches every 6 months near the end. The only towing he did was hauling firewood up north.

Edited by fuzzymoomoo
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Did you burn up the tranny or the torque converter specifically? My point was the clutch is a weak link in a manual drivetrain because it's a friction connection while the torque converter doesn't have a physical connection at low speeds so it's much less likely to fail.

 

You can spec out a manual to handle towing heavy loads but the cost and weight go up accordingly. That's why manuals sometimes have lower tow ratings than automatics.

While I didn't take it apart to find out, I believe it was the torque converter. I was trying to back a load + trailer of gravel up a incline and it eventually got to where the engine would spin but the torque converter wouldn't transmit the power so the truck stopped moving. It worked fine when I wasn't trying to push 20,000 lbs with it. I was already annoyed with the automatic and that was the last straw. I located a junkyard ZF-5 for $300 and never looked back.

 

For what it's worth, I've never had a clutch friction surface fail. I've had slave cylinders fail and worn out pressure plate springs but I've never worn out a disc. Some people are harder on clutches than others. My driving style seems to yield excellent clutch life.

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The Dodge/Ram trucks utilize a G56, sounds like the NV5600 but it is not! The G56 is a Daimler Design, manufactured in either Germany or Brazil. Because the trend is to automatic transmissions in that segment, I doubt Fiat will replace the G56 with something else.

 

In the market segment, class 3 thru class 5, its easier to get a driver if the truck is an automatic!

 

The basic parts between transfer cases and manual transmissions are totally different. Automatic transmissions utilize planetary gearsets, ie sun gear, ring gear, pinion gears. The manual transmissions utilize usually helical dual mesh gears for each gear on parallel shafts.

 

Although both New Process Gear and Borg Warner Muncie did produce both products at one time, both exited the business as volumes could not justify resources and investment given the market prices involved.

 

In the mid range trucks, Dana also exited the manual business and Clark Equipment transferred the volume that was left to their Brazil plant and later sold the business to Eaton in Brazil.

 

The only remaining manuals produced in this country are the Eaton Roadranger products 7,9,12 and 15 speed heavy duty manuals for the class 7 and 8 trucks. These are twin countershaft designs that are not synchronized, but are easy to shift.

 

So best advice is don't fight a market trend and enjoy your new 2016 or 2017 pickup ford or gm with their new 10 speed automatic transmission.

 

Edselford

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What's the story with the Mazda transmissions that Ford was using in the Ranger/Explorer (M5OD-R1) and F150 (M5OD-R2)? Where were they made and why are they called "Mazda" when they were apparently never put in a Mazda product? There seem to have been several bazillion produced, especially of the Ranger variety. A large percentage of Rangers were manual even right up the end.

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I'm sure they were used in Mazda vehicles in Japan.

Not that I've ever heard of. They're bigger than needed for the size of personal vehicles sold in Japan and also designed for rwd architecture. They're not a commercial vehicle trans either. I can't think of any applications that were/are sold in Asia.

Edited by Sevensecondsuv
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