madime39 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 AWS does not ruin lives! Get seniority before you complain about having to work weekends! They did not take vacation days away! Sounds like you have no clue Just out of curiosity, which shift are you on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlecountry Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Just out of curiosity, which shift are you on? I work the shift I prefer to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RougeWelder Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) I am grateful for my job, but my gratitude is not towards a legacy employee who complains about not having a raise while I make half for doing the same job. Hey.....you took the job knowing you would be paid half of what a tier 1 guy makes. What made you change your mind? You found out that the work is hard and not as easy as the talking heads on the news channels say it is? Your body hurts? You have no pension or benefits? You don't make enough to put $$ into a retirement account? Anyone on the unemployment line will accept a job for $15 an hour until they have to live it every day and realize it is hard work and they are not being compensated what they should be. Especially when the company they work for is making huge profits. Plus it is the tier 1 employee that allowed them to hire tier 2 people like you. Tier 1 employees voluntarily gave up compensation(i.e. cola, xmas bonus, raises, etc.) and approved the contract that allowed you to be hired. The majority of tier 1 employee's are trying to get tier 2 abolished and bring you up to tier 1 compensation. How can you not be grateful to people who are responsible for your current lifestyle and are fighting for your equality to tier 1 status? Edited January 31, 2015 by RougeWelder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooltime Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Hey.....you took the job knowing you would be paid half of what a tier 1 guy makes. What made you change your mind? You found out that the work is hard and not as easy as the talking heads on the news channels say it is? Your body hurts? You have no pension or benefits? You don't make enough to put $$ into a retirement account? Anyone on the unemployment line will accept a job for $15 an hour until they have to live it every day and realize it is hard work and they are not being compensated what they should be. Especially when the company they work for is making huge profits. Plus it is the tier 1 employee that allowed them to hire tier 2 people like you. Tier 1 employees voluntarily gave up compensation(i.e. cola, xmas bonus, raises, etc.) and approved the contract that allowed you to be hired. The majority of tier 1 employee's are trying to get tier 2 abolished and bring you up to tier 1 compensation. How can you not be grateful to people who are responsible for your current lifestyle and are fighting for your equality to tier 1 status? Tier 2 have officially started their transition to full wages in just under 4 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RougeWelder Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) I know exactly how it works. I know Tier 2 will never have a pension, nor do I want one. I'm fine with the company contributing to my 401k. I'd rather control my own retirement than have to worry about someone screwing my pension up. Ask Enron and Hostess retirees how their pensions are doing. I think you should ask my dad who has been retired from ford for 28 years now how his pension is doing. He also made enough $$$ to stuff his TESPHE account. We did not live a rich lifestyle while he was working, but I am happy to say that with his PENSION + RETIREMENT SAVINGS + SOC SEC, he is extremely comfortable financially. Let me know how well you get along with your measly savings and soc sec when you retire. Not to mention your medical bills you will have to pay when after 30+ yrs of working the line start taking a toll on your old ass. Think ahead grasshopper....Be honest now...at your current pay, are you contributing at least 15% of your pay into TESPHE? Plus, if you are relying only on Ford to contribute to your TESPHE, how are you "in control" of your own retirement? Edited February 27, 2015 by RougeWelder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RougeWelder Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 yup.....just as I thought. A youngster who is "just happy to have a job". Keep thinking that way and you will soon reach the upper level of lower class earners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tier2 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I think you should ask my dad who has been retired from ford for 28 years now how his pension is doing. He also made enough $$$ to stuff his TESPHE account. We did not live a rich lifestyle while he was working, but I am happy to say that with his PENSION + RETIREMENT SAVINGS + SOC SEC, he is extremely comfortable financially. Let me know how well you get along with your measly savings and soc sec when you retire. Not to mention your medical bills you will have to pay when after 30+ yrs of working the line start taking a toll on your old ass. Think ahead grasshopper....Be honest now...at your current pay, are you contributing at least 15% of your pay into TESPHE? You obviously have not read all my post. I've CLEARLY stated that my problem is with the Tier 1's who say they will vote no if they don't get a raise and Tier 2 does. In one post you say I should be grateful for my current lifestyle and in another you say my lifestyle is terrible. I'm confused with the point you are trying to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tier2 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I think you should ask my dad who has been retired from ford for 28 years now how his pension is doing. He also made enough $$$ to stuff his TESPHE account. We did not live a rich lifestyle while he was working, but I am happy to say that with his PENSION + RETIREMENT SAVINGS + SOC SEC, he is extremely comfortable financially. Let me know how well you get along with your measly savings and soc sec when you retire. Not to mention your medical bills you will have to pay when after 30+ yrs of working the line start taking a toll on your old ass. Think ahead grasshopper....Be honest now...at your current pay, are you contributing at least 15% of your pay into TESPHE? The company is currently contributing 9% of my pay to TESPHE...I'm fine without a pension, but I also know that the companies books look alot better without pensions on them anymore, so they have no excuse for not closing the gap of Tier 1 and Tier 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrymaker Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Show me the huge signing bonus there's a yes vote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4Real? Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 yup.....just as I thought. A youngster who is "just happy to have a job". Keep thinking that way and you will soon reach the upper level of lower class earners. Let's not tear down our brothers and sisters. With the job market and outlook the way it is, I think many are "just happy to have a job". If the choice is between no job and having a job, what would you choose? Even a job at Tier 2 wages is better than no job and better than many jobs out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long forker DTP FINAL Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) Tier 2 I though it was 4%. Edited February 8, 2015 by Long forker DTP FINAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTP'er Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 4Real I'll put you down for a yes vote on the next contract, enjoy the lemon-lime kool-aid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RougeWelder Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) You have that backwards. You should be thanking Tier 2 that you still have a job, without us willing to do the same job as you for half the wage, then you would be out if a job. You guys complain about not having a raise, while the person next to you makes half of your wage, are no different than the company! Greedy! Maybe because you already make double what a tier 2 makes? Nice union brother you are! What a joke! I am grateful for my job, but my gratitude is not towards a legacy employee who complains about not having a raise while I make half for doing the same job. My problem is with the tier 1 employees who say they will not vote yes for a contract that gives tier 2 a raise if they don't get one. THAT is having the same mindset as the company....pure greed. I knew exactly what I was getting and I took the job with the expectation that it would change this contract and I believe it will. I know exactly how it works. I know Tier 2 will never have a pension, nor do I want one. I'm fine with the company contributing to my 401k. I'd rather control my own retirement than have to worry about someone screwing my pension up. Ask Enron and Hostess retirees how their pensions are doing. What do you think a "unit" is? Its stock. You obviously have not read all my post. I've CLEARLY stated that my problem is with the Tier 1's who say they will vote no if they don't get a raise and Tier 2 does. In one post you say I should be grateful for my current lifestyle and in another you say my lifestyle is terrible. I'm confused with the point you are trying to make. These are the posts which initiated my responses. Never did I reply that your lifestyle is terrible. The point I was trying to make was your dissent with tier 1 employees. I will respond to each of these posts one by one.... 1st....Tier 1 allowed the creation of tier2 employees because of the hard times auto companies were in at that time. It was one of the reasons Ford did not need government help. Tier1 gave concessions that allowed you to be hired plus gave up other compensation that allowed Ford Mtr. to survive in hard times. If we rejected tier2 hiring, we would still have a job, you would not. We rightfully complain about not having a raise in over 10 years after allowing tier2 hiring and then voting you a raise 2 yrs later while still not getting one for ourselves. And you want to call us greedy for wanting a raise in this contract while fighting to get rid of tier2 and making you equal to tier1 compensation?? 2nd....We are fighting that they abolish tier2 and make them equal to tier1. Do you really think tier1 should allow our compensation to be reduced to tier2 levels? You want to call us a joke because of the compensation we have earned and fought for over the years is more(not double) than yours? Your post comes across that you feel you are under compensated now that you have lived the job.....well we agree and are fighting to do away with tier2. Yet you say we are greedy??? When you accepted the job(i would have to if i was unemployed) you knew you would be working next to people who made more, so why the insults??? 3rd....You should be grateful toward tier1 people who voted for and allowed you to be hired. Plus it is YOUR fault for accepting a job which is under-compensated, not tier1 for making what they do. Also refer to "2nd" above. 4th....We already voted a raise for tier2 without getting one ourselves. Was that greed? We believe tier2 should be equally compensated to tier1. Is that greed? Wanting a raise after more than 10yrs while giving concessions which reduced our compensation while Ford got through tough times and now makes billions....is that greed? If you had 15-20yrs, would you be ok with that? Be honest. 5th....This post just shows how naive you are with your expectations in the ways corporations do business. Corporations never, and I mean never, do what is right. They do what they can get away with. What exactly did you expect them to do this contract? 6th....You don't want a pension????? Are you nuts? A pension is a legit benefit a company pays an employee to compensate them for working a lifetime for them and allowing them to profit from their hard work and battered bodies.Then you make reference to two companies who's upper management and board members stuffed their pockets and embezzled hundreds of millions of dollars, got caught and went to jail and screwed it's employee's. That was an isolated incident to a few corporations, not the norm. Are you putting the Ford's in the same category as the Skillings, Ken Lay's, and Bernie Madoff's? I don't think so. 7th....Your arrogance comes through with this one. With your self-righteous, and ignorant statement of a unit versus one share of Ford stock. One unit of Ford stock in TESPHE is equal to approximately one third of a share. One unit is not equal to one share. 8th....I never said your lifestyle is terrible. The point I am trying to make is that your anger and dissent toward tier1 is misguided. The job and income you currently enjoy should be attributed to tier1 employee's. It is tier1 employee's which are fighting to equalize compensation and abolish tier2 classification. The majority of tier1 do not look down on tier2 people because of your lesser compensation. The majority really want to do away with second tier. If you feel you are being looked down on, or treated less than a tier1 guy, it is because(being brutally honest here) of your low seniority. You will have to deal with that your entire career at Ford. With my measly 21yrs at Ford, I still have to deal with that from people that have more time than me. Do not take it personally, it is mostly good natured ribbing. Sorry for the lengthy post but had to explain the point I was trying to make. Edited February 9, 2015 by RougeWelder 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RougeWelder Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) Let's not tear down our brothers and sisters. With the job market and outlook the way it is, I think many are "just happy to have a job". If the choice is between no job and having a job, what would you choose? Even a job at Tier 2 wages is better than no job and better than many jobs out there. OK.....after a lengthy response to tier2's posts(which you should read), the post you replied to was for his/her non-response to a question I asked in my previous post to the one you replied to. If I was unemployed, I would definitely accept a tier2 position at Ford. What I would not do is bash or in your words "tear down" our brothers and sisters that were responsible for my hiring. Nor would I blame them and hold a grudge for my lesser compensation and call them greedy for the compensation they are given. If I was hired as a tier2, I would know that I would be working next to someone making much more than me and deal with it, not think they were greedy. Instead of working with a chip on my shoulder, I would talk with them and find out tier1 is fighting to abolish the 2 tier payscale. I would understand this will not happen overnight but appreciate what they have given up and also appreciate they are fighting for my equalization. By the way......the job market is now thriving and the economic outlook is very good. Corporations are making money hand over fist(google it) at the expense of under-compensated employee's. Since we bargain for our compensation and cannot be fired for no reason because of our contract, we can demand proper compensation instead of just taking what they are willing to give us. Others do not enjoy this luxury because of the right-to-work laws put in place by the political group(republicans) who enjoy the so called contributions of large corporations which seek to enhance their profits on the backs of their workers. They would prefer to spend frivolously on their own compensation, benefits, and bad judgements than to compensate their workers properly. Edited February 9, 2015 by RougeWelder 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTPrt Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I've posted before in another thread, about Tier 2 and explained it as best I can, with many others explaining it further . . . I'm Tier 1 and have more seniority than most on this site . . . We wanted Tier 2 . . . get your job . . . We gave away much . . . Now with the Company standing on firm footing and investing in new product and improved plants (much better than the DAP that I worked in for 30 years) . . . Now is the time for ALL of us to begin making the money that is deserved . . . ALL of US work very hard ( except those who just show up when they can ) . . . The cost of living raising a family is so much more now than it was 10 years ago, many of you know that . . . Many of the Tier 1's lost a lot of our investments in TESPHE, home values declined. food and gas had skyrocketed . . . Please Tier 2's, understand that we are fighting for raises, not just for us, but for YOU . . . We want you to have PARITY (Some are receiving it now) . . . Sure it may sound like greed and maybe those that speak like that, might not express it well . . . Many of us are not the same generation and have used our backs for quite a long time . . . Cut us some slack . . . We are all UNION . . . Let's not lose it with such division as the New Contract approaches. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tier2 Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Tier 2 I though it was 4%. It is 4% of earnings, but also an additional $1 per hour worked. That adds the additional 4.5-5%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tier2 Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 1st....Tier 1 allowed the creation of tier2 employees because of the hard times auto companies were in at that time. It was one of the reasons Ford did not need government help. Tier1 gave concessions that allowed you to be hired plus gave up other compensation that allowed Ford Mtr. to survive in hard times. If we rejected tier2 hiring, we would still have a job, you would not. We rightfully complain about not having a raise in over 10 years after allowing tier2 hiring and then voting you a raise 2 yrs later while still not getting one for ourselves. And you want to call us greedy for wanting a raise in this contract while fighting to get rid of tier2 and making you equal to tier1 compensation?? Agree with all you said, just want to add that tier 2 shouldn't expect a raise. Why would tier 1 agree to vote yes on a raise for tier 2 when they've gone over 10 yrs without one themselves... Roguewelder.....with comments like the one above from FocusFrank, are you sure all tier 1 is fighting for tier 2 raises? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RougeWelder Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) 1st....Tier 1 allowed the creation of tier2 employees because of the hard times auto companies were in at that time. It was one of the reasons Ford did not need government help. Tier1 gave concessions that allowed you to be hired plus gave up other compensation that allowed Ford Mtr. to survive in hard times. If we rejected tier2 hiring, we would still have a job, you would not. We rightfully complain about not having a raise in over 10 years after allowing tier2 hiring and then voting you a raise 2 yrs later while still not getting one for ourselves. And you want to call us greedy for wanting a raise in this contract while fighting to get rid of tier2 and making you equal to tier1 compensation?? Agree with all you said, just want to add that tier 2 shouldn't expect a raise. Why would tier 1 agree to vote yes on a raise for tier 2 when they've gone over 10 yrs without one themselves... Roguewelder.....with comments like the one above from FocusFrank, are you sure all tier 1 is fighting for tier 2 raises? Man....you just don't get it. I never said "all" tier1 is fighting for "tier2 raises" this contract. that is ridiculous. In fact, I don't think tier2 should get raises this contract either unless tier2 is totally abolished and brought up to tier1 compensation. I also believe tier1 should definitely get a significant raise, especially after voting yes for raises for people with only 2-3yrs on the job last contract while not getting one for ourselves. That alone proves what we think of tier2....that your initial compensation was unfair. What I was trying to get across was the majority of tier1 is fighting to eliminate tier2 and make them equal to tier1. We do not like our workforce being split with tier1 workers and tier2 workers. The union was created on the foundation of "UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL". Well, the IUAW divided us and we don't like it. You will never get "all"(100%) of people to agree on anything. The fight to equalize all of us must continue. Equalization will not happen this contract and probably not even the next, but we can not just let it go. The main reason for my post is I don't care for the way you disrespect tier1 people for their compensation and your absurd way of thinking that we feel we are better than tier2 employees. If equalization of tier2 to tier1 compensation was put to a vote to the membership today, I guarantee it would pass. 100%???? no way....would it pass???? without a doubt. This is the last time I will respond to your ungrateful comments. I suggest you appreciate what you have and also appreciate what others are doing on your behalf. If you still think we are greedy for the compensation we fought and bargained for over the decades, greedy for fighting for a bigger slice of the pie, greedy for giving up compensation so Ford can survive and still profit, you can kiss my a$$. I am done trying to get you to understand. With that said, no matter what your response or what you think, I will still fight for your equalization. How is that for greed? Edited February 21, 2015 by RougeWelder 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niteeyes Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I wouldn't vote that either, sure sounds like tier 2 guys really have it in for tier 1, that might factor in to my vote jerk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tier2 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I wouldn't vote that either, sure sounds like tier 2 guys really have it in for tier 1, that might factor in to my vote jerk. How do we have it in for you? Perhaps you missed my responses on voting no if a wage cut to tier 1 was proposed. It's your right to vote no if you don't get a raise and tier 2 does, but that is not a union mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niteeyes Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 if tier 2 is offered a raise and not tier 1. I will vote no, plain and simple, we have given and given and given, now is the time to get a bit back. now if say tier 2 is offered 15% and tier 1 5% then I would vote yes. We gave up a lot just so you could have a job.I also know that with attrition, tier 2 will be moved to tier 1. we can not allow the tier 1 rate to rise above the already 20%, at those rates everyone will rise to tier 1 in time, that is what I thought you knew when being hired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niteeyes Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) I feel pretty strongly that the company is going to try and raise the tier 2 level up higher, maybe even 50%, if that happens tier 2 is screwed, so we better either eliminate tier 2 or at least hold it at the 20% level. shouldn't take to alful long to get raised to tier 1 that way. Edited February 25, 2015 by niteeyes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmsford Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 If the cap was really only 20% it wouldn't be too bad. With all the stipulations they have in the contract like Sterling and Rawsonville employees or any previously outsourced work they bring back don't count against the 20% cap I wouldn't be surprised if the true number already is somewhere close to 40-50% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tier2 Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 If the cap was really only 20% it wouldn't be too bad. With all the stipulations they have in the contract like Sterling and Rawsonville employees or any previously outsourced work they bring back don't count against the 20% cap I wouldn't be surprised if the true number already is somewhere close to 40-50% This is the truth....anyone that has read the contract knows it's not 20%. Look how many jobs Ford has added in the past 4 years and we are just now talking about 300-500 transitioning. At that rate it would take 15+ years for some to get converted to tier 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tier2 Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 if tier 2 is offered a raise and not tier 1. I will vote no, plain and simple, we have given and given and given, now is the time to get a bit back. now if say tier 2 is offered 15% and tier 1 5% then I would vote yes. We gave up a lot just so you could have a job.I also know that with attrition, tier 2 will be moved to tier 1. we can not allow the tier 1 rate to rise above the already 20%, at those rates everyone will rise to tier 1 in time, that is what I thought you knew when being hired. For some tier 2 a 15% raise would be less than a 5% raise for you. I know it sounds crazy but it's the truth. It's time to bring back equal pay for equal work plain and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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