Chevy Volt Jr.??

[blwnsmoke]

http://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-gm-planning-lower-priced-version-2016-chevy-201623253--sector.html

 

 

 

Hoping to boost demand for its slow-selling Volt hybrid, Chevrolet is planning to sell two versions of the redesigned 2016 Volt, including a lower-priced model with a smaller battery pack and shorter driving range, supplier sources told Reuters on Tuesday.

 

 

 

"Volt customers are the happiest customers in the world. We found a formula that works for them, and we're not going to deviate from that formula."

 

 

 

GM on Tuesday said it will spend $384 million to upgrade tooling and equipment at Detroit Hamtramck, which it said will build the next-generation Volt "and two future products."

The standard Volt won't deviate dramatically from the current model, which is priced from just under $35,000 and has a driving range of up to 380 miles, according to Chevrolet. GM also wants to offer a lower-cost edition, priced from just over $30,000 that would likely have a range of less than 300 miles, with less equipment, the supplier sources said.

 

[RichardJensen]

I literally heaved a sigh at that.

 

This is how you take $50B in government money and end up bankrupt all over again.

[Fgts]

So adding more hybrid cars will make a company BK?

[akirby]

So adding more hybrid cars will make a company BK?

 

The way GM is doing it? Yes. The way Toyota, Ford and most everyone else is doing it? No.

[akirby]

The only real appeal of the Volt over other plug-in hybrids is the extended 40 mile range. This allows my neighbor to drive to work, recharge and drive home almost entirely on battery power. If you reduce the range to 20 miles then there is no longer an advantage in electric range and when the battery does run out the regular plug-ins (Prius, Fusion, C-Max) will get better fuel economy because of the drivetrain design which transfers engine power to the wheels more efficiently.

 

Ford's Plug-ins (and Prius) are built on existing platforms, not a bespoke platform. So where is the appeal of a Volt Jr. plug-in hybrid with the same range as a C-Max Energi but worse MPG built on a low volume bespoke platform?

 

A hybrid/plug-in hybrid Caddy, Chevy or Buick small or midsized car/crossover would make FAR FAR FAR more sense. That's where GM product planning is way off base.

[Anthony]

 

Ford's Plug-ins (and Prius) are built on existing platforms, not a bespoke platform. So where is the appeal of a Volt Jr. plug-in hybrid with the same range as a C-Max Energi but worse MPG built on a low volume bespoke platform?

 

To be fair, it is built on the Delta II platform, which is shared with many other vehicles. I'm sure there some changes necessary for the battery, etc…. but it not built on a one-off platform.

 

That being said, GM couldn't figure out how to sell it anyway.

[akirby]

 

To be fair, it is built on the Delta II platform, which is shared with many other vehicles. I'm sure there some changes necessary for the battery, etc…. but it not built on a one-off platform.

 

Given that the Volt has a totally unique floor pan to hold the batteries, a totally unique tophat design, unique interior and a totally unique drivetrain - I would hardly call it the same platform. What does it really share with the Cruze?

[sullynd]

Given that the Volt has a totally unique floor pan to hold the batteries, a totally unique tophat design, unique interior and a totally unique drivetrain - I would hardly call it the same platform. What does it really share with the Cruze?

And the Prius is different how?

 

Ford's Plug-ins (and Prius) are built on existing platforms, not a bespoke platform.

Edited April 9, 2014 by sullynd

[akirby]

And the Prius is different how?

 

 

The Plug-in version is built on the same platform as the non-plug-in version. Prius itself is on a dedicated platform, but here is the difference:

 

2013 Prius Sales - 400K +

2013 Volt sales - 23K (US), 25K (globally)

[mustang_sallad]

The only real appeal of the Volt over other plug-in hybrids is the extended 40 mile range. This allows my neighbor to drive to work, recharge and drive home almost entirely on battery power. If you reduce the range to 20 miles then there is no longer an advantage in electric range and when the battery does run out the regular plug-ins (Prius, Fusion, C-Max) will get better fuel economy because of the drivetrain design which transfers engine power to the wheels more efficiently.

 

Ford's Plug-ins (and Prius) are built on existing platforms, not a bespoke platform. So where is the appeal of a Volt Jr. plug-in hybrid with the same range as a C-Max Energi but worse MPG built on a low volume bespoke platform?

 

A hybrid/plug-in hybrid Caddy, Chevy or Buick small or midsized car/crossover would make FAR FAR FAR more sense. That's where GM product planning is way off base.

 

You make good points about the fuel economy once the battery's empty. I've spent a lot of time in both the Volt and the C-Max and Fusion energi, and I was pleasantly surprised that the Ford plug-ins give you very close to full performance in electric mode. But there's still a really big gap between the Volt's 40-mile range and the 21-mile range on the Energi products. If GM can put out a version of the Volt with a smaller battery, 5 seats, 30 mile range, ~40mpg performance in gas mode for the price of the C-Max energi or potentially even lower, I would definitely choose it over any current Ford. That said, I'll be really curious to see the rumoured Focus Energi, which may be out around the same time. Hopefully by then, Ford will have put in the effort to improve the packaging on their plug in vehicles. The Volt has a very usable space under the hatch, whereas the C-Max Energi and Focus Electric are made really awkward for large items by the hump, and the Fusion Energi's trunk is a total deal breaker for me.

[jpd80]

GM is looking at fringe models instead of getting Voltec prime time in key Mid size sedan and SUV where justification

is easier and potential volume is much better. ...........Next gen Ford energi will be breathing down Voltec's neck.

Edited April 11, 2014 by jpd80

[akirby]

Voltec needs a much more efficient engine to make up for the energy conversion losses. Until then the regular PIHs will continue to have an advantage. But they do need to get this into traditional vehicles and not just in one-offs.

[fordmantpw]

Voltec needs a much more efficient engine to make up for the energy conversion losses. Until then the regular PIHs will continue to have an advantage. But they do need to get this into traditional vehicles and not just in one-offs.

 

You know, since this technology has been in use for over 100 years, you'd think GM could have done better with efficiency. Running engines in the heart of their powerband to charge batteries should make it reasonably simple to achieve maximum fuel efficiency. Especially when compared to mating electrical and mechanical energy to make a car move like normal hybrids.

[akirby]

Maybe the engine they're using just isn't very efficient period. And still having the engine mechanically connected to the wheels probably constrains it even more. A fully decoupled drivetrain with only an electrical connection would give you far more options.

[fordmantpw]

A fully decoupled drivetrain with only an electrical connection would give you far more options.

 

Ahhh, I thought that's what the Voltec system was. My mistake.

[akirby]

 

Ahhh, I thought that's what the Voltec system was. My mistake.

 

Nope. That's what they led you to believe when it was in development. But it's connected to a motor/generator/transmission that's connected to the wheels. That's how it can assist driving the wheels directly at high speeds (70+).

 

Here is a good video:

 

[mustang_sallad]

I'm also hoping that there next gen Volt will see a lot of improvement in gas-mode fuel economy, but early reports on the i3's performance in gas mode suggests that maybe there isn't that much room to improve. You can get it with a range extender, and it really is a series hybrid without an * as we learned with the Volt - no mechanical connection from the engine to the wheels at all (unless they also have a surprise in store). And it's also a tiny little 600cc motorcycle engine - sized closer to a vehicle's average power requirements, as opposed to the Volt's engine which is big enough to handle at least some heavy acceleration and hill climbing once the battery's empty. One early test suggests the i3's engine may be even LESS efficient than the Volt:

http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-rex-road-test-yields-34-mpg-plus-noise-levels-rex-operation-video/

 

But lets wait till we hear some official numbers from testing on a controlled drive cycle so that we're comparing apples to apples.

 

At the end of the day, the point of both these vehicles is that you spend the majority of your time in electric mode (even more so with the i3). The Volt I drive at work has spent over 75% of its miles with the engine off after about 20,000 miles. If we had a C-Max energi instead, that percentage would go down, but the fuel economy when the engine is off would improve. It's up to the customer to look at their typical driving patterns and figure out which is best for them, but I think its fair to say that the compromise in gas-mode mpg can be worth it's really just your safety net for driving electric most of the time.

[akirby]

At the end of the day, the point of both these vehicles is that you spend the majority of your time in electric mode (even more so with the i3). The Volt I drive at work has spent over 75% of its miles with the engine off after about 20,000 miles. If we had a C-Max energi instead, that percentage would go down, but the fuel economy when the engine is off would improve. It's up to the customer to look at their typical driving patterns and figure out which is best for them, but I think its fair to say that the compromise in gas-mode mpg can be worth it's really just your safety net for driving electric most of the time.

 

Exactly. Which is why smaller batteries make no sense.

[mustang_sallad]

 

Exactly. Which is why smaller batteries make no sense.

 

A drastically smaller battery for the Volt makes no sense, but that doesn't mean there isn't a market for a PHEV that's $4K cheaper than both the Volt AND the Fusion Energi with a slightly smaller battery. Split the difference between those two (40 and 21) - 32 miles would be perfect for me, i'd still be keeping the engine off 90% of the time on my own commute.

[akirby]

 

A drastically smaller battery for the Volt makes no sense, but that doesn't mean there isn't a market for a PHEV that's $4K cheaper than both the Volt AND the Fusion Energi with a slightly smaller battery. Split the difference between those two (40 and 21) - 32 miles would be perfect for me, i'd still be keeping the engine off 90% of the time on my own commute.

 

But how many people need more than 20 miles and less than 40? And the only reason the Volt costs the same as the Fusion Energi is that GM is taking a loss on them. Batteries are expensive.

 

A 30 mile range volt jr. should be the same price as a 30 mile range Energi - all else being equal. And the Energi will have better mpg after 30 miles.

[jpd80]

The two advantages I see the current Volt having are

1) its electric range

2) that mountain recharge thingy - it seems to make Volt work as a better hybrid.

 

There's no point in GM shortening the next Volts range too much,

anything below 30 miles will put it at odds with Ford's energi PHEVs.

 

So my guess would be Junior Volt - 30 miles, long range - 50 or 60 miles.

It just depends how much efficiency GM picks up with changes to production

especially taking battery packaging in house.

 

I wonder if GM would try using its own 1.0 GDIT in place of the current 1.2,

that would do wonders for Volts performance and off battery economy...

Edited April 15, 2014 by jpd80