Jump to content

Custom Search





Coming Up Next:
Lincoln Aviator


Welcome to Blue Oval Forums


Sign In  Log in with Facebook

Create Account
Welcome to Blue Oval Forums.  You must first register to create topics and post replies. Registration is a quick and easy process and only takes a minute.  Be apart of Blue Oval Forums by signing in or creating an account.
  • Start new topics and reply to others
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get email updates
  • Get your own profile page and make new friends
  • Send personal messages to other members
  • Create a photo album and post images
  • Use the Shout feature and more. . .
Click here to create an account now.
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

Ford up 6%, Industry reports September sales


  • Please log in to reply
98 replies to this topic

#81 OFFLINE   SoonerLS

SoonerLS

    trying to plug a hole in the universe

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,519 posts
  • Joined 20-June 11
  • Region:Decline
  • Location:Norman
  • Current Vehicle:Lincoln LS, '13 F150 STX

Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:09 PM

 What evidence?

Someone posted a snippet from an article earlier this year wherein someone from Ford said that Lincoln was profitable. I don't recall in which thread I saw it, but I'm pretty sure it was one of the recent locked threads.

photo-thumb-15254.jpg

So, give it over, take a break
Shut your hole, you're causing my poor heart to ache
To all you saints and sinners, you losers and you winners
Here's to one more day above the roses
-- Gaelic Storm, One More Day Above the Roses

 








Lose this advertisement by becoming a member. Click here to create a free account.


#82 OFFLINE   jpd80

jpd80

    Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,114 posts
  • Joined 02-June 04
  • Region:Decline
  • Location:My Happy Place
  • Current Vehicle:Falcon 302 V8

Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:48 AM

Funny, when it's a GM platform, you have to prove that it IS making money.  When it's a Ford platform you have to prove it ISN'T making money.

 

Gotta love it.

Oh FFS, another  strawman

 

The point being made is whether the  return on  a dedicated platform  like Alpha is justified given the  lowish sales.

Maybe you'd like to help GM out by buying one of it 17,000 odd ATS in inventory, I'm sure no one here would object.....


Edited by jpd80, 08 October 2013 - 12:51 AM.


#83 OFFLINE   Fgts

Fgts

    Blue Oval Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPip
  • 1,514 posts
  • Joined 02-March 10

Posted 08 October 2013 - 06:27 AM

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="grbeck" data-cid="875094" data-time="1381179632"><p>
 <br />
Part of the problem is that GM is pitching the ATS as a direct competitor to the BMW 3-series, but every comparison test I've seen has it placing behind not only the BMW, but also the Lexus IS.<br />
 <br />
We can bash comparison tests as biased or unfair, but if potential buyers aren't given a compelling reason to visit the Cadillac dealer to check out its latest offering, they will not do so. A few first-place finishes in direct comparison tests would definitely give the Cadillac a needed boost.<br />
 <br />
If you are going up against the class leader, you'd better have a product that can withstand comparison. "Almost as good" isn't going to cut it. </p></blockquote>

Devils advocate, how many comparisons the new MKZ won against TL, Lacrosse and Es350?. Since its not "good enough" against the fwd competition Ford shouldn't try to reform Lincoln using that logic. Please name a model that "got it right" the 1st time.

Edited by Fgts, 08 October 2013 - 06:31 AM.


#84 OFFLINE   Fgts

Fgts

    Blue Oval Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPip
  • 1,514 posts
  • Joined 02-March 10

Posted 08 October 2013 - 06:29 AM

I hate how my post don't keep quote boxes

#85 OFFLINE   jpd80

jpd80

    Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,114 posts
  • Joined 02-June 04
  • Region:Decline
  • Location:My Happy Place
  • Current Vehicle:Falcon 302 V8

Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:07 AM

I hate how my post don't keep quote boxes

Try using full editor, that sometimes cures the machine code glitches.

 

 

Devils advocate, how many comparisons the new MKZ won against TL, Lacrosse and Es350?. Since its not "good enough" against the fwd competition Ford shouldn't try to reform Lincoln using that logic. Please name a model that "got it right" the 1st time.

I can understand what you're saying and Ford has been playing Lincoln within very safe ground with

past differentiation limited to a reskin and better trim/equipment levels. In the recent past that would

have probably been enough but better competition and a stronger Ford brand is forcing Lincoln

to be much more and go higher. While MKZ is an improvement, Lincoln can do much better

and hopefully we see that with the coming MKC and replacement MKX and MKS.

 

I think LaCrosse has run its course, it's not selling nearly as well as it did previously,

maybe it's time for Buick to have its own version of the Impala/XTS with full size trunk.



#86 OFFLINE   silvrsvt

silvrsvt

    Bite my Shiny metal ass!

  • Moderator
  • 17,987 posts
  • Joined 03-October 02
  • Region:U.S. Northeast
  • Location:New Jersey
  • Current Vehicle:2017 Escape SE AWD/2013 Taurus SHO

Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:13 AM

I hate how my post don't keep quote boxes

 

You can always quote text by using the following commands:

 

[quote.]

[/quote.]

 

remove the period after quote for it work properly


Edited by silvrsvt, 08 October 2013 - 07:14 AM.

"Hell, there are no rules here-- we're trying to accomplish something."
Thomas A. Edison


Ford Products owned though the years:
1986 Escort GT Race Red
1998 Mustang GT Dark Green Satin
2002 SVT Focus Satin Silver
2006 Mustang GT Tungsten Grey

2010 Escape XLT AWD Sport Blue
2013 Taurus SHO Ruby Red

2017 Escape SE AWD Platinum White

Future Fords:
2021 Bronco

20xx Mustang GT350 or the like

 

199923.png
 
photo-thumb-15254.jpg


#87 OFFLINE   NickF1011

NickF1011

    Moderator Shmoderator

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 33,712 posts
  • Joined 13-September 04
  • Region:Decline
  • Location:Annapolis, MD
  • Current Vehicle:2011 Edge Sport, 1997 Mustang Cobra

Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:15 PM


Devils advocate, how many comparisons the new MKZ won against TL, Lacrosse and Es350?. Since its not "good enough" against the fwd competition Ford shouldn't try to reform Lincoln using that logic. Please name a model that "got it right" the 1st time.

 

The difference comes to what the investment was in trying to compete with those other vehicles. "Good enough" can at least profitably be improved upon over time if you aren't betting the farm on the platform you're using.


Current Rides:
2011 Ford Edge Sport AWD
1997 Ford SVT Mustang Cobra

Previous Rides:
2004 Mazda 6s
1995 Saturn SL2
1994 Ford Explorer XLT 4x2
1993 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4
1993 Ford Taurus LX
1987 Ford Taurus GL
 
Moderator at TeamMustang.net

#88 OFFLINE   grbeck

grbeck

    Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,266 posts
  • Joined 14-July 00

Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:47 PM


Devils advocate, how many comparisons the new MKZ won against TL, Lacrosse and Es350?. Since its not "good enough" against the fwd competition Ford shouldn't try to reform Lincoln using that logic.

 

 

 

The difference is that GM has been very straightforward about the ATS being targeted at the BMW 3-Series, while I haven't heard Ford specifically state that the MKZ is targeted at any particular model.

 

GM's statements to the enthusiast press about the ATS, along with the televisions commercials and print ads for the car, make it pretty clear that it is aimed directly at the BMW 3-Series. This virtually begs for the "buff books" to conduct a comparison test (so far, I've seen comparison tests in Car and Driver, Motor Trend and Road and Track).

 

When the ATS fails to beat not only the 3-Series, but also the Lexus IS, in comparison tests, potential customers therefore have one less reason to visit their Cadillac dealer instead of their BMW dealer. Especially when BMW, as a marque, carries more prestige and cachet in their circles than Cadillac does (like it or not).

 

With the MKZ, the message from Ford has been, "This is the first step in the new direction of Lincoln." I haven't read where Ford has specifically targeted this car at the Lexus ES, although the two do seem to be natural competitors.  

 

 

Please name a model that "got it right" the 1st time.

 

 

Are you referring to the first edition of an all-new model, or a complete revamp of an existing model? Because I can think of several examples of vehicles in each category that were "right" immediately upon introduction:

 

1973 Honda Civic

1976 Honda Accord

1977 "downsized" Chevrolet Impala/Caprice

1986 Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable

1986 Acura Legend

1990 Lexus LS

2001 Ford Escape

2006 Ford Fusion


Edited by grbeck, 08 October 2013 - 02:48 PM.


#89 OFFLINE   NickF1011

NickF1011

    Moderator Shmoderator

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 33,712 posts
  • Joined 13-September 04
  • Region:Decline
  • Location:Annapolis, MD
  • Current Vehicle:2011 Edge Sport, 1997 Mustang Cobra

Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:57 PM


Are you referring to the first edition of an all-new model, or a complete revamp of an existing model? Because I can think of several examples of vehicles in each category that were "right" immediately upon introduction:

 

1973 Honda Civic

1976 Honda Accord

1977 "downsized" Chevrolet Impala/Caprice

1986 Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable

1986 Acura Legend

1990 Lexus LS

2001 Ford Escape

2006 Ford Fusion

 

No '64 1/2 Mustang?? *gasp*

 

And well, while the 2001 Escape was "right" for the market in terms of sales, it was anything but "right" in terms of quality.


Current Rides:
2011 Ford Edge Sport AWD
1997 Ford SVT Mustang Cobra

Previous Rides:
2004 Mazda 6s
1995 Saturn SL2
1994 Ford Explorer XLT 4x2
1993 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4
1993 Ford Taurus LX
1987 Ford Taurus GL
 
Moderator at TeamMustang.net

#90 OFFLINE   grbeck

grbeck

    Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,266 posts
  • Joined 14-July 00

Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:14 PM

No '64 1/2 Mustang?? *gasp*

 

And well, while the 2001 Escape was "right" for the market in terms of sales, it was anything but "right" in terms of quality.

 

I didn't want to go back that far. You could go back to the Model T, the Model A, the 1935 Packard 120, the 1955 Chevrolet and the 1955 Chrysler 300, as they were all "right" from day one.

 

As for the Escape - in the long run, its basic design and abilities outweighed the initial quality glitches. The vehicle has been a huge success for Ford.


Edited by grbeck, 08 October 2013 - 03:15 PM.


#91 OFFLINE   papilgee4evaeva

papilgee4evaeva

    La Voz de Razón

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,499 posts
  • Joined 07-September 07
  • Region:U.S. Southern Atlantic
  • Location:Research Triangle, NC
  • Current Vehicle:2005 Buick Rainier CXL; 2013 Ford Fusion Titanium

Posted 08 October 2013 - 05:28 PM

Devils advocate, how many comparisons the new MKZ won against TL, Lacrosse and Es350?. Since its not "good enough" against the fwd competition Ford shouldn't try to reform Lincoln using that logic. Please name a model that "got it right" the 1st time.

 

To answer, there haven't been any such comparison tests.  At least none that I've been able to find through a quick Google search.


CURRENT VEHICLES
2005 Buick Rainier CXL V8, 158K (mine)
2013 Ford Fusion Titanium, 48k (wife's)

PREVIOUS VEHICLES

1999 Nissan Maxima SE Limited, 188K (wife's; donated)

2001 Pontiac Bonneville SLE, 126K (the Cruise Missile; started getting gremlins, plus we outgrew it)

1996 Nissan Pathfinder SE 4WD, 111-160K+ (stupid odometer) (sold to make room for the Bonnie)
1995 Dodge Intrepid (wife's; almost everything that could go wrong did; towed away stealthily)

FUTURE VEHICLES?

Some other sort of three-row family hauler (for us)

6th-gen Ford Mustang GT Coupe? (for me)


#92 OFFLINE   Fgts

Fgts

    Blue Oval Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPip
  • 1,514 posts
  • Joined 02-March 10

Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:02 PM



 
 
 
The difference is that GM has been very straightforward about the ATS being targeted at the BMW 3-Series, while I haven't heard Ford specifically state that the MKZ is targeted at any particular model.
 
GM's statements to the enthusiast press about the ATS, along with the televisions commercials and print ads for the car, make it pretty clear that it is aimed directly at the BMW 3-Series. This virtually begs for the "buff books" to conduct a comparison test (so far, I've seen comparison tests in Car and Driver, Motor Trend and Road and Track).
 
When the ATS fails to beat not only the 3-Series, but also the Lexus IS, in comparison tests, potential customers therefore have one less reason to visit their Cadillac dealer instead of their BMW dealer. Especially when BMW, as a marque, carries more prestige and cachet in their circles than Cadillac does (like it or not).
 
With the MKZ, the message from Ford has been, "This is the first step in the new direction of Lincoln." I haven't read where Ford has specifically targeted this car at the Lexus ES, although the two do seem to be natural competitors.  
 
 
 
 
Are you referring to the first edition of an all-new model, or a complete revamp of an existing model? Because I can think of several examples of vehicles in each category that were "right" immediately upon introduction:
 
1973 Honda Civic
1976 Honda Accord
1977 "downsized" Chevrolet Impala/Caprice
1986 Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable
1986 Acura Legend
1990 Lexus LS
2001 Ford Escape
2006 Ford Fusion


Ok I get the difference between a targeted competitor and a natural one, as you mentioned GM did state that the ATS is a 3 competitor but again the ATS sits on the CTS and future Camaro platform. The point I was making is a performance platform don't have to be a 500,000+ unit seller.

Another note you forgot the 84 Caravan, 91 Explorer as some that was successful from the start.

#93 OFFLINE   EBFlex

EBFlex

    New BON Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • Pip
  • 363 posts
  • Joined 24-June 13
  • Region:U.S. Great Lakes

Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:17 PM

The difference is that GM has been very straightforward about the ATS being targeted at the BMW 3-Series, while I haven't heard Ford specifically state that the MKZ is targeted at any particular model.

 

Ford directly referenced the Lexus ES350 in the press release for the 2013 MKZ.  In fact, they directly referenced it 6 times.


Edited by EBFlex, 08 October 2013 - 09:19 PM.


#94 OFFLINE   RichardJensen

RichardJensen

    Does whatever a SpiderPig does

  • Moderator
  • 35,308 posts
  • Joined 02-September 04
  • Location:Sioux Falls, SD
  • Current Vehicle:2000 Mercury Sable

Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:41 PM

Holy crap. A correct statement that can be independently verified. I'm impressed.


  • akirby, papilgee4evaeva and SoonerLS like this

photo-thumb-15254.jpg


#95 OFFLINE   jpd80

jpd80

    Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,114 posts
  • Joined 02-June 04
  • Region:Decline
  • Location:My Happy Place
  • Current Vehicle:Falcon 302 V8

Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:46 AM

 

Ford directly referenced the Lexus ES350 in the press release for the 2013 MKZ.  In fact, they directly referenced it 6 times.

Good factual post.



#96 OFFLINE   grbeck

grbeck

    Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,266 posts
  • Joined 14-July 00

Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:58 AM

 

Ford directly referenced the Lexus ES350 in the press release for the 2013 MKZ.  In fact, they directly referenced it 6 times.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

 

Have the "buff books" tested the MKZ against the ES350? I don't believe I've seen any comparison tests with the MKZ.



#97 OFFLINE   papilgee4evaeva

papilgee4evaeva

    La Voz de Razón

  • Blue Oval Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,499 posts
  • Joined 07-September 07
  • Region:U.S. Southern Atlantic
  • Location:Research Triangle, NC
  • Current Vehicle:2005 Buick Rainier CXL; 2013 Ford Fusion Titanium

Posted 09 October 2013 - 07:00 PM

I stand corrected. Thank you.

 

Have the "buff books" tested the MKZ against the ES350? I don't believe I've seen any comparison tests with the MKZ.

 

I checked earlier.  Haven't found any.


CURRENT VEHICLES
2005 Buick Rainier CXL V8, 158K (mine)
2013 Ford Fusion Titanium, 48k (wife's)

PREVIOUS VEHICLES

1999 Nissan Maxima SE Limited, 188K (wife's; donated)

2001 Pontiac Bonneville SLE, 126K (the Cruise Missile; started getting gremlins, plus we outgrew it)

1996 Nissan Pathfinder SE 4WD, 111-160K+ (stupid odometer) (sold to make room for the Bonnie)
1995 Dodge Intrepid (wife's; almost everything that could go wrong did; towed away stealthily)

FUTURE VEHICLES?

Some other sort of three-row family hauler (for us)

6th-gen Ford Mustang GT Coupe? (for me)


#98 OFFLINE   EBFlex

EBFlex

    New BON Member

  • Blue Oval Member
  • Pip
  • 363 posts
  • Joined 24-June 13
  • Region:U.S. Great Lakes

Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:56 PM

 

Holy crap. A correct statement that can be independently verified. I'm impressed.

 

Don't flatter yourself, it happens more than you choose to admit.

 

I stand corrected. Thank you.

 

Have the "buff books" tested the MKZ against the ES350? I don't believe I've seen any comparison tests with the MKZ.

 

Doesn't matter, they're all crap anyway according to all the professional automotive reviewers on this site.



#99 OFFLINE   RichardJensen

RichardJensen

    Does whatever a SpiderPig does

  • Moderator
  • 35,308 posts
  • Joined 02-September 04
  • Location:Sioux Falls, SD
  • Current Vehicle:2000 Mercury Sable

Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:52 PM

 

 

 

Don't flatter yourself, it happens more than you choose to admit.


 

And we're back to status quo.


  • SoonerLS likes this

photo-thumb-15254.jpg









Custom Search


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Privacy Policy Terms of Service ·