BrewfanGRB Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 MKS sales decline has been consistant, so while the MKZ is taking a few of those sales, it isn't much (of course, there wasn't much to take). I think the MKZ is doing great, and see that continuing, as it is an incredibly striking car in the wild. People like something different and exclusive in the higher price ranges, and this car has it. This is why I think sales will stay strong. As more people see them on the road, more people will check them out at the dealership. The ATS, for Cadillac, is where I would be concerned. Untold Billions for appx 3000 a month sales?? 3 series still outselling it 3-1. Maybe this copying BMW thing isn't the best route. Everyone keeps talking about how things will get better when the new CTS comes out. Why?? It will be a lot more expensive. If sales of the ATS don't pick up after the new CTS is out........................... at what point do we call it a flop?? I STILL do not understand the point of the ATS. For the hell of it, I build and priced it a couple months ago and it prices out just like the CTS did before (maybe even a touch higher). So CTS comes out and it prices higher, that shoves the XTS up even higher. I mean, Christ, even a decently equipped 3-series is similarly priced or even less than the ATS. You're not going to be a BMW-beater doing that considering the best way to beat BMW is by putting a BMW logo on it. I've said this a thousand times: The vast majority of 3-series buyers do not buy it for being the Ultimate Driving Machine. They couldn't care less it's RWD, or that it DOES have impressive handling. They buy it because: It's. A. BMW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrewfanGRB Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 MAY SALES BY BRAND Ford 239,280 Lincoln 7,305 Total Vehicles 246,58 Buick 17,982 Cadillac 17,982 Chevrolet 179,510 GMC 41,594 Total GM 252,894 Ford shouldn't worry about competitors, just keep getting new productsto market as they come due and ramp up sales to maximize effect. 2013 is going to be a very good year for Ford NA's bottom line, it has to be for the rest of Ford's sake... Did Buick and Cadillac really end up exactly the same? Unless it's just a typo, that's a fun coincidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 (edited) Ok, so well established models from Ford vs new nameplate models from the competition, got it. Is the PIs, C-max and Fiesta POS flops too?. Because those new models isn't the world on fire either. PIs are limited-audience; C-Max is a hybrid and is production limited by component production rates; and the Fiesta is a subcompact, which will never sell well in America. What's the Dart's excuse? The Dart is a new nameplate, true, but a new nameplate from a poorly-thought-of manufacturer on a mediocre car will always do much worse than a new nameplate from a manufacturer with a strong reputation and/or a well executed vehicle. Edited June 4, 2013 by Noah Harbinger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 (edited) I STILL do not understand the point of the ATS. For the hell of it, I build and priced it a couple months ago and it prices out just like the CTS did before (maybe even a touch higher). So CTS comes out and it prices higher, that shoves the XTS up even higher. I mean, Christ, even a decently equipped 3-series is similarly priced or even less than the ATS. You're not going to be a BMW-beater doing that considering the best way to beat BMW is by putting a BMW logo on it. I've said this a thousand times: The vast majority of 3-series buyers do not buy it for being the Ultimate Driving Machine. They couldn't care less it's RWD, or that it DOES have impressive handling. They buy it because: It's. A. BMW. It's a dick contest vehicle. Keep in mind, XTS has a "short" shelf life (short by GM's standards), to be replaced by the mythical "Omega" "flagship" "Ciel-inspired" "range topping" vehicle (like all the GM execu-babble adjectives?), a product which has never left the blue sky phase of development. And, as I understand if from people who know, ATS was actually a secondary decision following the needed Sigma replacement and associated CTS price hike: - CTS needed to be replaced, and the new version needed a new platform instead of aging Sigma. - A new CTS would need to be more expensive to fund development of this new platform. - They didn't want to give up all the "cheap" volume, thus another all-new model was "needed" to help retain the current CTS volume. - ATS development kicking off first, and a business case for Alpha was built in reverse by shoehorning other existing products into the program. - Development costs on Alpha and Sigma II got so wildly out of control that Sigma II was scrapped and next-gen CTS was moved to Alpha. - Alpha, now underpinning ATS (3 variants), CTS (2 variants), Camaro, Caddy CUV, and any number of Buick wet dreams, ran into serious weight and electrical compatibility issues late in development. - Alpha phase 1 was pared down to ATS sedan, CTS sedan, and next-gen Camaro. For now, CTS coupe continues on Sigma as a silo'd model. - Alpha phase 2, ATS coupe / convertible and Caddy CUV were put on hold, though not killed. I believe the Buicks are on indefinite hold as well. Edited June 4, 2013 by PREMiERdrum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 (edited) Ford said May was the best month ever for a group of vehicles it calls the Super Segment, with sales up 19 percent to 96,266. The group consists of the Fusion, Escape, Fiesta subcompact, Focus compact and C-Max Hybrid crossover. Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20130603/RETAIL01/130609991#ixzz2VEa8XpWf Super segment buyers are coming on board big time... Edited June 4, 2013 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 (edited) PIs are limited-audience; C-Max is a hybrid and is production limited by component production rates; and the Fiesta is a subcompact, which will never sell well in America. What's the Dart's excuse? The Dart is a new nameplate, true, but a new nameplate from a poorly-thought-of manufacturer on a mediocre car will always do much worse than a new nameplate from a manufacturer with a strong reputation and/or a well executed vehicle. So they shouldn't even try and still get bitched at for not having a entry in the first place?, how in the world is a carmaker get respect in the segment if their not playing in the game?. In Cadillacs case it's going against a car thats been around for 40 years (3 series) its going to take a while to earn it. Caddy can go back to the 90s making fwd snoozeboxes that old people want or take a chance while replacing a higher volume vehicle(s). I hope the Buick version of Alpha didn't canned, that would suck, current Regal sales are dead and a epll replacement won't make sense due to the Malibu dose everything the Regal do with a smaller price. Edited June 4, 2013 by Fgts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehaase Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 If ATS and CTS fail, I see no future for Cadillac, other than a plush large sedan and a couple of crossovers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I hope the Buick version of Alpha didn't canned, that would suck, current Regal sales are dead and a epll replacement won't make sense due to the Malibu dose everything the Regal do with a smaller price. It hasn't been "canned", officially at least, just put on indefinite hold. The problem is this: How could a less expensive Buick Alpha be kept from cannibalizing ATS sales? Their internal projections for Alpha, like most at the RenCen, were ridiculously optimistic. With ATS sales settling in around 3k a month, I wouldn't expect to see an Alpha-based product wearing the tri-shield. Which begs the question: The point of Buick in the US is what again? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 - CTS needed to be replaced, and the new version needed a new platform instead of aging Sigma.- A new CTS would need to be more expensive to fund development of this new platform. - They didn't want to give up all the "cheap" volume, thus another all-new model was "needed" to help retain the current CTS volume. - ATS development kicking off first, and a business case for Alpha was built in reverse by shoehorning other existing products into the program. - Development costs on Alpha and Sigma II got so wildly out of control that Sigma II was scrapped and next-gen CTS was moved to Alpha. - Alpha, now underpinning ATS (3 variants), CTS (2 variants), Camaro, Caddy CUV, and any number of Buick wet dreams, ran into serious weight and electrical compatibility issues late in development. - Alpha phase 1 was pared down to ATS sedan, CTS sedan, and next-gen Camaro. For now, CTS coupe continues on Sigma as a silo'd model. - Alpha phase 2, ATS coupe / convertible and Caddy CUV were put on hold, though not killed. I believe the Buicks are on indefinite hold as well. Thus why we haven't seen a new RWD platform from Ford since the Mustang...its hard to make a business case for it! Heck even the Mustang business case is hard to justify outside of being Ford's halo model and its most recognizable nameplated outside of the F-series. Then again when they did the S197 platform they actually nailed the sales numbers and as far as I know its profitable too..unlike all the RWD platforms GM has done for Caddy and the like over the years....so it does have that going for it! Any why in pray tell is Caddy making ANOTHER RWD CUV after the first one "bombed" and was replaced by a lesser FWD platform shared with Chevy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Any why in pray tell is Caddy making ANOTHER RWD CUV after the first one "bombed" and was replaced by a lesser FWD platform shared with Chevy? Well, to be at least a little fair to Caddy in regards to the RWD CUV, the first SRX may have faired a little better if it wasn't gifted with looks about as appealing as the Lincoln MKT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Well, to be at least a little fair to Caddy in regards to the RWD CUV, the first SRX may have faired a little better if it wasn't gifted with looks about as appealing as the Lincoln MKT. And V8 engines with a penchant to self destruct. Thus why we haven't seen a new RWD platform from Ford since the Mustang...its hard to make a business case for it! Heck even the Mustang business case is hard to justify outside of being Ford's halo model and its most recognizable nameplated outside of the F-series. Then again when they did the S197 platform they actually nailed the sales numbers and as far as I know its profitable too..unlike all the RWD platforms GM has done for Caddy and the like over the years....so it does have that going for it! Any why in pray tell is Caddy making ANOTHER RWD CUV after the first one "bombed" and was replaced by a lesser FWD platform shared with Chevy? Ford has been carefully charting D2C into an evolutionary course as to eliminate the need for a woodshedding and new platform every 8 years. Although, when 2015 Mustang development kicked off in earnest, it was shelled out to have a lot of commonality with Falcon... It will be interesting to see how that turns out. Will they have to alter parts of the Mustang program to compensate for Falcon's demise? Or will this sharing with between D2C and what we'll call a D2S still exist, albeit with the D2S not be produced in Oz? GM couldn't find success with an Australia-sourced RWD program, so they silo'd Australia and developed another RWD platform. What if Ford continues the platform, or at least the future version of the platform, by pulling it out of Oz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Did Buick and Cadillac really end up exactly the same? Unless it's just a typo, that's a fun coincidence. PREMiERdrum fixed that here. The May 2013 sales figure for Cadillac was 13,808. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 And V8 engines with a penchant to self destruct. Ford has been carefully charting D2C into an evolutionary course as to eliminate the need for a woodshedding and new platform every 8 years. Although, when 2015 Mustang development kicked off in earnest, it was shelled out to have a lot of commonality with Falcon... It will be interesting to see how that turns out. Will they have to alter parts of the Mustang program to compensate for Falcon's demise? Or will this sharing with between D2C and what we'll call a D2S still exist, albeit with the D2S not be produced in Oz? GM couldn't find success with an Australia-sourced RWD program, so they silo'd Australia and developed another RWD platform. What if Ford continues the platform, or at least the future version of the platform, by pulling it out of Oz? I have a hunch that Ford NA will make all rwd in one or two factories since the volumes are low enough and Ford can offer a profitable rwd platform for US, EU and AU. A Falcon for US/AU, Mustang and finally a CTS competitor for Lincoln can be done under 2 roofs. The revised Zeta is about 80% new underneath, I don't see GM walking away soon from that platform with all that money thats in it. Also Zeta is to big for a proper ATS/CTS size vehicle (witness the current Camaro). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 The revised Zeta is about 80% new underneath, I don't see GM walking away soon from that platform with all that money thats in it. Also Zeta is to big for a proper ATS/CTS size vehicle (witness the current Camaro). Zeta will be phased out with Alpha variants though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Zeta will be phased out with Alpha variants though. And, of course, some at GM want to phase out Alpha (the lighter, more flexible Zeta) for another lighter, more flexible RWD platform.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 (edited) And, of course, some at GM want to phase out Alpha (the lighter, more flexible Zeta) for another lighter, more flexible RWD platform.... Deja Vue? GM seems to have real issues selecting a suitable product envelope for it's RWD vehicles, maybe the reason is that deep down it knows that those RWD products could be executed on AWD global platforms and that competing wit BMW is pure vanity? Edited June 4, 2013 by jpd80 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I think it's fairer to say that they have 30lbs of groceries and no matter how many bags they put it into, or how many times they repack, they've still got 30lbs of groceries. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrewfanGRB Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 It's a dick contest vehicle. Keep in mind, XTS has a "short" shelf life (short by GM's standards), to be replaced by the mythical "Omega" "flagship" "Ciel-inspired" "range topping" vehicle (like all the GM execu-babble adjectives?), a product which has never left the blue sky phase of development. And, as I understand if from people who know, ATS was actually a secondary decision following the needed Sigma replacement and associated CTS price hike: - CTS needed to be replaced, and the new version needed a new platform instead of aging Sigma. - A new CTS would need to be more expensive to fund development of this new platform. - They didn't want to give up all the "cheap" volume, thus another all-new model was "needed" to help retain the current CTS volume. - ATS development kicking off first, and a business case for Alpha was built in reverse by shoehorning other existing products into the program. - Development costs on Alpha and Sigma II got so wildly out of control that Sigma II was scrapped and next-gen CTS was moved to Alpha. - Alpha, now underpinning ATS (3 variants), CTS (2 variants), Camaro, Caddy CUV, and any number of Buick wet dreams, ran into serious weight and electrical compatibility issues late in development. - Alpha phase 1 was pared down to ATS sedan, CTS sedan, and next-gen Camaro. For now, CTS coupe continues on Sigma as a silo'd model. - Alpha phase 2, ATS coupe / convertible and Caddy CUV were put on hold, though not killed. I believe the Buicks are on indefinite hold as well. Good Lord. Is everyone in GM an alcoholic? Because just reading this makes me want to make a drink. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrewfanGRB Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 PREMiERdrum fixed that here. The May 2013 sales figure for Cadillac was 13,808. Right, thanks! I stumbled across this in the Competing Products topic and forgot to come back to update my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Good Lord. Is everyone in GM an alcoholic? Because just reading this makes me want to make a drink. To quote my favorite scene from Tommy Boy, GM's "gonna need a new map." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 It's ludicrous to compare Dart sales to Lincoln. It's way past ludicrous - it's approaching PLAID! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 (edited) And V8 engines with a penchant to self destruct. Ford has been carefully charting D2C into an evolutionary course as to eliminate the need for a woodshedding and new platform every 8 years. Although, when 2015 Mustang development kicked off in earnest, it was shelled out to have a lot of commonality with Falcon... It will be interesting to see how that turns out. Will they have to alter parts of the Mustang program to compensate for Falcon's demise? Or will this sharing with between D2C and what we'll call a D2S still exist, albeit with the D2S not be produced in Oz? GM couldn't find success with an Australia-sourced RWD program, so they silo'd Australia and developed another RWD platform. What if Ford continues the platform, or at least the future version of the platform, by pulling it out of Oz? The next Mustang has no relation to the Falcon, they are fundamentally seperate programs with no shared resources. Ford has known for a long time that they were shuttering the Falcon. Edited June 5, 2013 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) Ford is doing rather well with Hybrid sales - LINK Hybrid sales May 2013.pdf Edited June 10, 2013 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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