New Light & Medium Duty News

[twintornados]

The joke about EcoBoost is that you can have Eco or you can have Boost, just not both at the same time ! For reasons stated above !!

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I think that was the point.....power when you needed it - economy when you cruise along.

[jpd80]

Mind you, there's some pretty compelling evidence that the 3.5 EB 10AT is pretty good on fuel up the Ike Gauntlet.

Towing 9,000 lbs, it covered the distance in just under 8 minutes and averaged 3.5 mpg The only 5.0 F150 test

I could find was a 2016 6AT towing 8,000 lbs, it covered the distance in 8 min 12 secs and got 3.8 mpg

A 5.3 8AT Silverado towing the 8,000 lb trailer covered the distance in 8min 4 sec and scored 3.5 mpg.

Edited December 28, 2017 by jpd80

[SteelyD]

So what's all this Ecoboost talk have to do with a 7.3 NA Hurricane MD?

[jpd80]

So what's all this Ecoboost talk have to do with a 7.3 NA Hurricane MD?

Why a large capacity NA engine is preferred over a forced induction engine in trucks that are loaded most of the time.

This thread is now 119 pages long and as per the heading, covers both light and Medium Duty news.

Edited December 28, 2017 by jpd80

[jpd80]

So there is a possibility that both the 6.2L and 7x will be in production together for some period of time ! &x seems kind of big for F250/350.

While the 6.2 is popular in F 250 (~50% of sales), it's much less popular in F350 (`25%) which is most likely due to insufficient capacity.

So I suspect that the 7.3 will probably cover all of the 6.8's former truck applications and not just a MD.engine.

There's a great opportunity to flesh out some more gasoline sales in the heavier SDs.

Edited December 28, 2017 by jpd80

[twintornados]

While the 6.2 is popular in F 250 (~50% of sales), it's much less popular in F350 (`25%) which is most likely due to insufficient capacity.

So I suspect that the 7.3 will probably cover all of the 6.8's former truck applications and not just a MD.engine.

 

Maybe that's the plan, to fill in the gaps in F350 through to F650 gasoline trucks creating more sales along the way...

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What would help 6.2L sales in F350 would be the 10R140 that would be built in 2019...

[Stray Kat]

So what is the 7X already?! Need more info! When is it due out? Is it OHC or pushrod? SAE bolt pattern on the bell housing flange like the 6.7 diesel?

 

Need more facts!

[twintornados]

So what is the 7X already?! Need more info! When is it due out? Is it OHC or pushrod? SAE bolt pattern on the bell housing flange like the 6.7 diesel?

 

Need more facts!

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Thats the problem....very little is known at this point and much of what is discussed is speculation.

[Sevensecondsuv]

So what is the 7X already?! Need more info! When is it due out? Is it OHC or pushrod? SAE bolt pattern on the bell housing flange like the 6.7 diesel?

 

Need more facts!

According to wikipedia, all Ford diesels since the 6.0 have used the Ford Modular bellhousing pattern. This makes sense, since the 6.7 Scorpion has only ever been sold with the 6R140 trans attached to it. That trans has the modular pattern, not SAE.

[Joe771476]

A recent issue of HDT magazine had a list of biggest fleets. Nestle Waters boasted largest medium duty propane fleet with a photo of a Ford medium.

[jpd80]

So what is the 7X already?! Need more info! When is it due out? Is it OHC or pushrod? SAE bolt pattern on the bell housing flange like the 6.7 diesel?

 

Need more facts!

We were told a few weeks back that the new 10R140 gearbox is due out in Q3 (August?) of 2019, around 20 months from now

that would be an opportunity to release the 7.3 with the new gearbox as well as adding it to the 6.7 diesel and 6.2 Boss.

[jpd80]

The use of an SAE Flange would only be necessary if customers were asking for a wider choice of transmissions.

Maybe Ford is just not that interested in straying too far much from its Super Duty parts bin.

Edited December 29, 2017 by jpd80

[theoldwizard]

The use of an SAE Flange would only be necessary if customers were asking for a wider choice of transmissions.

Maybe Ford is just not that interested in straying too far much from its Super Duty parts bin.

The key for Ford getting back into the Medium Duty business was to make use of key major EXISTING components ! It maximizes their profit.

[twintornados]

I believe the bellhousing on the 6R140 is SAE style...it makes the bellhousing pattern compatible with other applications and increases use for other brands if they wanted to switch from say Allison to Ford Torqshift..although that hasn't happened as far as I have seen, read, or heard...

[Bob Rosadini]

The use of an SAE Flange would only be necessary if customers were asking for a wider choice of transmissions.

Maybe Ford is just not that interested in straying too far much from its Super Duty parts bin.

As I would see this, not an issue as I think any additional sales opportunities would involve say a Cummins/ Allison-or even Eaton/Spicer??-combo rather than a Power Stroke/Allison combo. Its NOT a question of a different trans combo IMO

 

The key for Ford getting back into the Medium Duty business was to make use of key major EXISTING components ! It maximizes their profit.

No argument on maximized profits with the internal engine/trans. But I still say a lot of incremental sales are lost-in particular in class 7- as there are plenty of fleets/applications that would be content with a Super Duty cab but want no part of a V-8 / torque shift.

 

As I've posted many times, a local Altech facility is jammed with new 450/550 chassis awaiting bucket truck installations. So to those who say the SD cab is unacceptable in class 7 and utilities want a true medium duty cab-i.e. F'liner/ International- I say- "oh-not a problem to send two guys out in a 550 with a "little cab"-but not okay to send those two out in a 750 with a "little cab".

 

There are a lot of Bluediamond 750 utility bucket/polecats running around these parts. That "little cab" wasn't a problem back when it had a Ciummins/Allison drivetrain.. What has changed?

 

I completely understand the financial benefit of pushing internally sourced components out the door. I simply say additional chassis production/plant utilization can't be ignored when you could increase your sales with a more popular drive train. And if I've got a fleet of 550's, I would gladly pay a bit of a premium for the commonality of one cab structure and dealer relationship in my fleet.

[Sevensecondsuv]

I believe the bellhousing on the 6R140 is SAE style...it makes the bellhousing pattern compatible with other applications and increases use for other brands if they wanted to switch from say Allison to Ford Torqshift..although that hasn't happened as far as I have seen, read, or heard...

Except the same 6R140 is bolted to the 6.2L V8 and 6.8L V10, both of which most definitely have the modular bellhousing

[twintornados]

Except the same 6R140 is bolted to the 6.2L V8 and 6.8L V10, both of which most definitely have the modular bellhousing

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So,it sounds like they for has two castings for the case....one for the Triton/Modular/BOSS bellhousing and one for 6.7L Scorpion...which, I think if I remember correctly, has an SAE bellhousing bolt pattern.

 

ADD ON: I found the article from pickuptrucks.com when the 6.7L Scorpion was introduced...

 

 

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/08/first-look-fords-new-6-7-liter-v-8-scorpion-power-stroke-diesel-engine.html

 

 

Transmission

Ford is quiet for now about the Scorpion’s transmission, though we expect the Super Duty's new gearbox will be the new 6R140 heavy-duty six-speed automatic with power takeoff capability.

Ford officially says the standard manual transmission is gone as of the 2011 model year. The take rate was too low to justify continuing production of the ZF-source 6-speed handshaker. The rear cover of the new engine follows an SAE 12 bolt standard that allows Ford to mate almost any HD automatic transmission to the back of the mill.

Edited December 30, 2017 by twintornados

[fordmantpw]

I thought someone had debunked that as incorrect info and the PS does NOT have the standard SAE bolt pattern. Why they wouldnt make it standard is unknown though since it was bolted to an all new transmission when it came out.

[sullynd]

Yeah, I thought that was debunked last time it was posted on here.

[Sevensecondsuv]

I thought someone had debunked that as incorrect info and the PS does NOT have the standard SAE bolt pattern. Why they wouldnt make it standard is unknown though since it was bolted to an all new transmission when it came out.

Because, while the transmission was new, it had to bolt to two engines that weren't new - the 6.2 and 6.8. Easier just to use the same bell as every other large Ford motor at that point. If the scorpion did in fact have an SAE pattern, I'm pretty sure we'd see additional transmission options in the F650/750 by now. The 6R140 is the only transmission available in those trucks because it's the only one that fits

[jpd80]

Because, while the transmission was new, it had to bolt to two engines that weren't new - the 6.2 and 6.8. Easier just to use the same bell as every other large Ford motor at that point. If the scorpion did in fact have an SAE pattern, I'm pretty sure we'd see additional transmission options in the F650/750 by now. The 6R140 is the only transmission available in those trucks because it's the only one that fits

 

and just repeating Bob's thoughts on this regarding fleet customer preferences...

 

As I would see this, not an issue as I think any additional sales opportunities would involve say a Cummins/ Allison-or even Eaton/Spicer??-combo rather than a Power Stroke/Allison combo. Its NOT a question of a different trans combo IMO

 

No argument on maximized profits with the internal engine/trans. But I still say a lot of incremental sales are lost-in particular in class 7- as there are plenty of fleets/applications that would be content with a Super Duty cab but want no part of a V-8 / torque shift.

[twintornados]

Because, while the transmission was new, it had to bolt to two engines that weren't new - the 6.2 and 6.8. Easier just to use the same bell as every other large Ford motor at that point. If the scorpion did in fact have an SAE pattern, I'm pretty sure we'd see additional transmission options in the F650/750 by now. The 6R140 is the only transmission available in those trucks because it's the only one that fits

.

What you seem to have lost in the translation is that Ford would make two castings for the case...one for Modular and one for Powerstroke. I found a picture of the Scorpion / 6R140 installed in a Pierce Fire Co firetruck - bellhousing sure looks like SAE standard to me...thoughts??

 

ADD ON: Found a .pdf of the 6R140 specs...doesn't specifically say SAE standard bellhousing, but if you look at the pictures in the .pdf, it all looks like it is SAE standard. http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA67871128.PDF

 

Edited December 31, 2017 by twintornados

[Sevensecondsuv]

It wasn't lost on me; I just don't think Ford bothered with two castings since the scorpions have never been fitted with anything other than the 6R140.

 

That brochure you posted does have a rather a non-modular looking round bell, but that's the only info if ever seen that indicates the scorpion has an SAE bell. Every other source says modular bell.

 

I should go look for "Ford 6.7 diesel ZF-6 swap" and see what turns up. That would shed some light from guys that have taken them apart.

[fordmantpw]

Because, while the transmission was new, it had to bolt to two engines that weren't new - the 6.2 and 6.8. Easier just to use the same bell as every other large Ford motor at that point. If the scorpion did in fact have an SAE pattern, I'm pretty sure we'd see additional transmission options in the F650/750 by now. The 6R140 is the only transmission available in those trucks because it's the only one that fits

Actually, the 6.2 and 6.7 came out at the same time.

 

And I think the 6R140 is the only transmission in the F6/750 because of costs and Fords desire to do it all in-house.

[twintornados]

It wasn't lost on me; I just don't think Ford bothered with two castings since the scorpions have never been fitted with anything other than the 6R140.

 

That brochure you posted does have a rather a non-modular looking round bell, but that's the only info if ever seen that indicates the scorpion has an SAE bell. Every other source says modular bell.

 

I should go look for "Ford 6.7 diesel ZF-6 swap" and see what turns up. That would shed some light from guys that have taken them apart.

.

A ZF-6 would not handle the power the Scorpion puts out....everything i have read indicates that...if all of your other sources are Wikipedia based, don't believe them, Wikipedia can be edited by users and since there is little info to begin with, I am suspect that Wikipedia is a good source of info in this case. Everything I have looked at indicates that the bellhousing is SAE standard.

Edited December 31, 2017 by twintornados