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1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

Edit time beat me to correct errors above,

F150.....51,331   
F250.....12,577
F350.......6,289
F450.......2,097
F550.......4,702
F650.......2,263
F750..........167
TOT........79,426

Thx for  posting.  The 750 numbers speaks volumes about the lack of another powertrain IMO.  Yeah- I know-broken record?

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18 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Thx for  posting.  The 750 numbers speaks volumes about the lack of another powertrain IMO.  Yeah- I know-broken record?

Hey, well within your right to keep saying as we all respect your insight on this topic
and clearly backed up by customer expectations being so very different in class 7.

I wonder if the 7.3 will help F750 or whether it needs a big dog Duratorq diesel in there,
maybe swallowing pride and allowing Allison gearbox option might also help too...

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yeah Bob, you're right about sales stats not matching observations.  The L-series were all over the highways around here, but national sales stats told a different story.  Maybe if Ford is increasing dealerships, class 8 might be a possibility!  And when it comes to class 7, I've always though of that as being the twilight zone.  You can either go with class 6, or if you're going to consider class 7, why not go all the way and just go into class 8?  Can you ever really over-spec? Are they that more expensive?  Just for example, the soda tractors.  Can a class 6 do it?  If not, is a class 8 OVER doing it?  Freightliner must be fuming since they are third in class 6 YTD sales!  Ram seems to have pulled ahead of Ford again in 3 thru 5.  I can't believe they have the dealer base to do that!  Almost every tow truck around here is a Ram.  Why?  Transport Topics blip on medium duty sales says Ford won over a lot of landscape, general delivery, beverage, and moving (U-Haul), most liely class 6, but that wasn't stated. On a side note, Daimler will be broken up into 3 entities: car and van, truck and bus, and financial.

Edited by Joe771476
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9 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Hey, well within your right to keep saying as we all respect your insight on this topic
and clearly backed up by customer expectations being so very different in class 7.

I wonder if the 7.3 will help F750 or whether it needs a big dog Duratorq diesel in there,
maybe swallowing pride and allowing Allison gearbox option might also help too...

The 7.3  I think will  be a huge success-or should I  say .."I  hope".  I agree on the Allison option too.  I would bet more customers get turned off by the Torqueshift than the 6.7.  Allison's have earned a good rep.   Most of the heavy chassis dealers are stocking around here (vocational) are Allisons.   

I guess the bean counters just insist  on the in house power trains for the obvious reason.  I just say the incremental volume that would be picked up would more than offset any loss associated with the lost Powerstroke/torqueshift sale.  And for those who say the increase in price  associated with the outsourced power train would discourage sales, I say plenty of buyers  would pay that incremental cost just for the piece of  mind they get-or perceive they get-with the proven Allison.  And in many cases, throw  in the Cummins-or the Ford Duratorques-or any inline engine vs  the Powerstroke.

Back to  the Torqueshift, I know many knowledgeable posters claim the upgraded version is  up to  the task.  I  hope they are  right-I have  been turned off however by the sales pitch from Ford saying the upgraded version has been "beefed up"-then they state it weighs 3 pounds more than the prior version.  I  guess that means... "engineering triumphs over blacksmithing"?

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2 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

yeah Bob, you're right about sales stats not matching observations.  The L-series were all over the highways around here, but national sales stats told a different story.  Maybe if Ford is increasing dealerships, class 8 might be a possibility!  And when it comes to class 7, I've always though of that as being the twilight zone.  You can either go with class 6, or if you're going to consider class 7, why not go all the way and just go into class 8?  Can you ever really over-spec? Are they that more expensive?  Just for example, the soda tractors.  Can a class 6 do it?  If not, is a class 8 OVER doing it?  Freightliner must be fuming since they are third in class 6 YTD sales!  Ram seems to have pulled ahead of Ford again in 3 thru 5.  I can't believe they have the dealer base to do that!  Almost every tow truck around here is a Ram.  Why?  Transport Topics blip on medium duty sales says Ford won over a lot of landscape, general delivery, beverage, and moving (U-Haul), most liely class 6, but that wasn't stated. On a side note, Daimler will be broken up into 3 entities: car and van, truck and bus, and financial.

Joe- Just keep in mind a 750 at 33,000 lb, GVW saves the FET expense.  That is why most oil dealers today buy class 7's with 2800 gal tanks. Ford OWNED that business in the old days with LN-8000s and even C-8000's.

 As for the soda tractors-agree the 750 SHOULD be a viable option.  But I've never seen one.  Around here the big dogs (Coke and Pepsi) are all International or Freightliner.  My bet is- offer that same Cummins Allison that is in the International and Ford would have customers.

As for the beer guys, most use tandem straight jobs-I assume to avoid need for class 1 CDL- or if tractors, they are class 8's-both single axles pulling tandem 35' trailers or tandem tractors as well.

Regarding your comment on tow  trucks, I  think the biggest reason for  the Ram's success is their pricing.  Although plenty of guys still have memories of the old Powerstroke.  When I go by the local JerrDan distributor, Ford 550's seem to outnumber everything in that weight class.  As for class 6 ramp trucks, Hino rules

And as I continue to report, when I cruise through the Altech facility one town over, Ford rules big time in class  4, 5.  The big trucks, International and F-liner with also a good number of Paccars. I have never seen a 650/750 (OAP) in their yard.

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About tow trucks, I was talking to an owner/operator in my area when we had my buddies truck flatbed towed recently. The owner/operator showed up with an F750 6.8L gasser and he told me that for the cost of operation vs the cost of acquisition made it a no brainer to go with the gas option. He also said that he cannot wait until he gets a 7.3L gasser in his next rig. As for RAM, he had one and claimed it spent more time BEING towed....I chuckled....

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I think Ford waited too long to come up with their own powertrain. They should have had one 20 years ago.  That, and the betrayal by getting out of class 8 is another thing that gnaws at customers' memories. You can lose a customer base in the blink of an eye, but it takes 10 to 20 years to earn it back!!!  Just like with Lincoln and Cadillac, and even Taurus.  All they had to do was stay in the game but they rested on their perceived laurels and it's been 20 years and hundreds of millions of dollars of engineering/design and marketing to bring it back and they've never returned to the glory days and probably never will.  You can level a building in 30 seconds, but it took a year to build it!

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9 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

I think Ford waited too long to come up with their own powertrain. They should have had one 20 years ago.  That, and the betrayal by getting out of class 8 is another thing that gnaws at customers' memories. You can lose a customer base in the blink of an eye, but it takes 10 to 20 years to earn it back!!!  Just like with Lincoln and Cadillac, and even Taurus.  All they had to do was stay in the game but they rested on their perceived laurels and it's been 20 years and hundreds of millions of dollars of engineering/design and marketing to bring it back and they've never returned to the glory days and probably never will.  You can level a building in 30 seconds, but it took a year to build it!

Doesn't matter what they did with the Taurus, the sedan market was eaten by CUV's.

 

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On 7/28/2019 at 9:45 AM, Bob Rosadini said:

My bet is- offer that same Cummins Allison that is in the International and Ford would have customers.

The only reason Ford got back into Medium Duty was they had an in-house powertrain.  This would mean higher profit and potentially lower costs.

I heard a rumor that the 6.7L Scorpion diesel was going to get some upgrades but I did not hear what the timing was.

 

We are all expecting good thing from the new gasser.  We certainly would have been happier with more HP and torque.  Let's hope it is enough to increase sales !  I think it will be AWESOME in an F250/F350 and I know the motohome guys (E350/E450 and F53) are "chomping at the bit" !

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4 minutes ago, Trader 10 said:

That's a huge exaggeration. With the exception of the F Series , both of those models easily outsell every other Ford nameplate. 

Are the sales of those two nameplates going up? Answer, no...even with domestics exiting them market, the entire segment is dying and those two nameplates are going to die off along with it. It is just like watching when the station wagon market began to die off....

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On 7/27/2019 at 10:59 PM, Bob Rosadini said:

Thx for  posting.  The 750 numbers speaks volumes about the lack of another powertrain IMO.  Yeah- I know-broken record?

I understand what you are getting at Bob, but then again, any "Cummins/Allison" combo offering would need to be spread out to other lines to give it the "economy of scale" or else it would lose $$$ on every sale to remain competitive. The sales numbers for F750 do not justify it as they currently stand...yes, I know about the "if you build it, they will come" approach, but I think the "Cummins/Allison" combo in the Ford would not do it since that combo is already available in competing lines. What Ford needs to do is to "out-Cummins/Allison" that combo with an in-house design such as an "Ecotorq/Torqshift"  of comparable size. That is a tall order indeed, but makes the most sense. 

But, even when the Cummins was offered in the F650/750 at the Blue Diamond joint venture, it was "only" 6.7L Cummins ISB motor. 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, twintornados said:

Are the sales of those two nameplates going up? Answer, no...even with domestics exiting them market, the entire segment is dying and those two nameplates are going to die off along with it. It is just like watching when the station wagon market began to die off....

YTD sales: Camry -1.0%, Accord -5.9%, Fusion +10.8%, Escape -8.0%, Edge -5.6%. Camry and Accord will be selling hundreds of thousands of units/year for many years to come.

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1 minute ago, Trader 10 said:

Camry and Accord will be selling hundreds of thousands of units/year for many years to come.

Doubtful if the market trends continue....but, hey, optimism abounds for the sedan market. With manufacturers working to make SUV's and CUV's more fuel efficient, that will continue to sound the death knell for sedans in general.   

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On 8/2/2019 at 11:43 PM, twintornados said:

I understand what you are getting at Bob, but then again, any "Cummins/Allison" combo offering would need to be spread out to other lines to give it the "economy of scale" or else it would lose $$$ on every sale to remain competitive. The sales numbers for F750 do not justify it as they currently stand...yes, I know about the "if you build it, they will come" approach, but I think the "Cummins/Allison" combo in the Ford would not do it since that combo is already available in competing lines. What Ford needs to do is to "out-Cummins/Allison" that combo with an in-house design such as an "Ecotorq/Torqshift"  of comparable size. That is a tall order indeed, but makes the most sense. 

But, even when the Cummins was offered in the F650/750 at the Blue Diamond joint venture, it was "only" 6.7L Cummins ISB motor

 

 

The 9.0 Liter Powertorq is a "buy-in" from Fiat but the 12.7 liter was developed in-house by Ford Otosan

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5 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The 9.0 Liter Powertorq is a "buy-in" from Fiat but the 12.7 liter was developed in-house by Ford Otosan

Not completely accurate, yes, the first generation (Series 7300) Ecotorq engine design was in fact a "buy in" from Fiat, but the second generation (Series 7400 and 9400) are designed "in house" and have nothing in common with the Fiat "buy in" motor other than they both burn diesel fuel.

This is like saying that the original "Power Stroke" Ford diesel V8 that was designed by Navistar means that the current "Power Stroke" diesel that was designed and built "in house" by Ford is still a Navistar engine.  

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On 8/2/2019 at 10:01 AM, Trader 10 said:

YTD sales: Camry -1.0%, Accord -5.9%, Fusion +10.8%, Escape -8.0%, Edge -5.6%. Camry and Accord will be selling hundreds of thousands of units/year for many years to come.

Camry sales:

 

Year Total
2004 35,032
2005 431,703
2006 448,445
2007 472,808
2008 436,617
2009 356,824
2010 327,553
2011 306,510
2012 404,885
2013 408,484
2014 428,606
2015 429,355
2016 388,616
2017 387,081
2018 343,439
2019 203,142

 

They shrank nearly 86K cars in 3 years (basically yearly sales of the Mustang on an off year)

 

Accord sales:

Year Total
2004 38,244
2005 376,293
2006 354,441
2007 382,231
2008 368,161
2009 290,056
2010 311,381
2011 252,304
2012 353,204
2013 366,678
2014 388,435
2015 355,557
2016 345,135
2017 322,655
2018 291,071
2019 153,579

 

The Accord sold less 100K cars since its high in 2014 last year.

 

 

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12 hours ago, twintornados said:

Not completely accurate, yes, the first generation (Series 7300) Ecotorq engine design was in fact a "buy in" from Fiat, but the second generation (Series 7400 and 9400) are designed "in house" and have nothing in common with the Fiat "buy in" motor other than they both burn diesel fuel.

This is like saying that the original "Power Stroke" Ford diesel V8 that was designed by Navistar means that the current "Power Stroke" diesel that was designed and built "in house" by Ford is still a Navistar engine.  

Yes, the Fiat engine (9.0) went away when Ford Otosan developed its newest diesels for Euro 6
but I wan't aware that Ford also makes an engine below the 13.0 in house design but glad to hear it.
the 9.0 litre 7400 series would be just the ticket for F650 and F750 as the 6.7 is a little "light on".

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1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

Yes, the Fiat engine (9.0) went away when Ford Otosan developed its newest diesels for Euro 6
but I wan't aware that Ford also makes an engine below the 13.0 in house design but glad to hear it.
the 9.0 litre 7400 series would be just the ticket for F650 and F750 as the 6.7 is a little "light on".

I agree that a 9.0L Ecotorq with a Ford HD Torqshift 6 speed would be just the ticket, but there is a problem...will Ford expend the $$$ to get the 9.0L Ecotorq emissions certified in the States for a relatively small market presence in Class 7. (Yes, the case of "if we build it, they will come" ideas abound) Ford would have to make a case for the Ecotorq motor in other applications such as F53 / F59 stripped chassis and other models to make a business case for it. Remember, the Cummins diesel in the old Blue Diamond F750 was "only" 6.7L in size. Would it be more cost effective to enlarge the Scorpion to a 7.3 size moving forward in all applications where the 6.7L Scorpion currently resides?

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19 hours ago, twintornados said:

I agree that a 9.0L Ecotorq with a Ford HD Torqshift 6 speed would be just the ticket, but there is a problem...will Ford expend the $$$ to get the 9.0L Ecotorq emissions certified in the States for a relatively small market presence in Class 7. (Yes, the case of "if we build it, they will come" ideas abound) Ford would have to make a case for the Ecotorq motor in other applications such as F53 / F59 stripped chassis and other models to make a business case for it. Remember, the Cummins diesel in the old Blue Diamond F750 was "only" 6.7L in size. Would it be more cost effective to enlarge the Scorpion to a 7.3 size moving forward in all applications where the 6.7L Scorpion currently resides?

Another area you could expand the 9.0L Ecotorq beyond F650/750, F53, F59 would also be the existing relationship Ford has with Fire Apparatus Maker Pierce.  The 6.7L Powerstroke/6-Speed Torqshift Transmission is currently an option in one fo their custom chassis, the Saber.  The other option is the Cummins L9

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2 hours ago, ausrutherford said:

I wonder if the 12.7L could fit in the F-750?

My guess-No- the 12.7 is an inline 6.  The 750 either has the PowerStroke or the  V-10 gasser.  My bet is the cab would also have top be raised, plus it would probably have a significant dog house, and I would think it would need much more radiator surface area.

 To say nothing of a heavier transmission.

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9 hours ago, ausrutherford said:

I wonder if the 12.7L could fit in the F-750?

The better question to ask is why you would want it in a class 7 truck? If there are some that feel a 6.7L is too small for class 7 applications, I would contend that 12.7L is too large for it. Class 8 vocational and LTL? Sure, but I don't see Ford jumping into full Class 8 any time soon.

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