New Light & Medium Duty News

[Joe771476]

Ford dropping/selling the farm tractor biz and in later years the class 8 truck segment was to increase shareholder value but it never materialized! Fact is, the stock went down! All it did was emasculate and emaciate a once-powerful dynasty! Ford was a -- if not THE -- leader in class 6 thru 8 up until the late 80's/early 90's. Daimler, after trying to sell their butt-ugly Mercedes trucks here in the USA, purchased Freightliner and knew they had to get rid of that pesky Ford if they wanted to ever make Freightliner profitable. So they hoodwinked Ford into selling off the L-series (after they had just retooled and redesigned it in 1996!) for a paltry $300 million! And around that time or not long after, Daimler also purchased Chrysler so now they had a full line of trucks from class 1 Dodge/Ram to class 8 Freightliner. I'm repeating what I said many years ago about this, but it needs repeating so that new readers will know and maybe some Ford truck bigwigs will get their heads out of their rear ends! So continuing: When up-until-then loyal Ford customers in class 8 found themselves scrambling to look elsewhere, they were also made aware by Daimler/Freightliner salespeople who said "hey, you know we also sell class 1 thru 5 trucks -- and cars -- through our Dodge/Ram brand." That is one reason why Dodge/Ram has been leading Ford in class 3 thru 5 for many years!!!! Ford has lost so many class 3 thru 5 sales over the years due to this, it's not even funny! They've also lost class 1 & 2 and even car sales. And they definitely have lost a lot of class 6 & 7 sales!!! Up until 2000, all the cars and trucks at the MDC water district in CT were Fords, and CL&P (now Eversource) and the CTDOT were also 99 percent Fords. Not now! They all have Ford, Chevy, Dodge light trucks and cars. Eversource has a few Ford mediums, but that's it! Okay, I'm done! Why do I have to get myself all riled up about this!?

[7Mary3]

NAV is poison to any corporation right now. The pending lawsuits over the MaxxForce is mind boggling. No one in their right mind would want any of that.

 

That's certainly an issue, but they are working through it. Their pension problems are probably more of a concern.

[Bob Rosadini]

NAV is poison to any corporation right now. The pending lawsuits over the MaxxForce is mind boggling. No one in their right mind would want any of that.

 

 

 

That's certainly an issue, but they are working through it. Their pension problems are probably more of a concern.

I thought all of the MaxxForce suits had been settled??? And if NAV is poison, what about VW? What is their total penalty for their "dieselgate" and I assume they have not made their last "payment" ??

 

And back to NAV, looks like all their sales numbers are starting to look up.

[Bob Rosadini]

Ford dropping/selling the farm tractor biz and in later years the class 8 truck segment was to increase shareholder value but it never materialized! Fact is, the stock went down! All it did was emasculate and emaciate a once-powerful dynasty! Ford was a -- if not THE -- leader in class 6 thru 8 up until the late 80's/early 90's. Daimler, after trying to sell their butt-ugly Mercedes trucks here in the USA, purchased Freightliner and knew they had to get rid of that pesky Ford if they wanted to ever make Freightliner profitable. So they hoodwinked Ford into selling off the L-series (after they had just retooled and redesigned it in 1996!) for a paltry $300 million! And around that time or not long after, Daimler also purchased Chrysler so now they had a full line of trucks from class 1 Dodge/Ram to class 8 Freightliner. I'm repeating what I said many years ago about this, but it needs repeating so that new readers will know and maybe some Ford truck bigwigs will get their heads out of their rear ends! So continuing: When up-until-then loyal Ford customers in class 8 found themselves scrambling to look elsewhere, they were also made aware by Daimler/Freightliner salespeople who said "hey, you know we also sell class 1 thru 5 trucks -- and cars -- through our Dodge/Ram brand." That is one reason why Dodge/Ram has been leading Ford in class 3 thru 5 for many years!!!! Ford has lost so many class 3 thru 5 sales over the years due to this, it's not even funny! They've also lost class 1 & 2 and even car sales. And they definitely have lost a lot of class 6 & 7 sales!!! Up until 2000, all the cars and trucks at the MDC water district in CT were Fords, and CL&P (now Eversource) and the CTDOT were also 99 percent Fords. Not now! They all have Ford, Chevy, Dodge light trucks and cars. Eversource has a few Ford mediums, but that's it! Okay, I'm done! Why do I have to get myself all riled up about this!?

Hah- you get all riled up Joe because like me, we live in the past! Let's face it, the furniture guy is going to turn Ford around just like he did Steelcase. And his stint at Michigan as AD proves he knows all about the importance of team building! And more importantly, he is well liked by the folks in Silicon Valley.

 

And as the majority on this site seem to think the "car" as we know it is dead, I guess we are on the right track. The end of cycles in terms of customer preferences is over and the buying public will never go back to the "car" as we once knew it.

 

Hmnn, then again, seems like there was more than one Seeking Alpha post today that was knocking Ford's decision. One recurring theme-playing to short term gains usually does not mean long term success.

[fuzzymoomoo]

And his stint at Michigan as AD proves he knows all about the importance of team building!

All he did was overpay for a coach (Football Jesus) known for wearing out his welcome and so far underperforming expectations

[twintornados]

Ford dropping/selling the farm tractor biz and in later years the class 8 truck segment was to increase shareholder value but it never materialized! Fact is, the stock went down! All it did was emasculate and emaciate a once-powerful dynasty! Ford was a -- if not THE -- leader in class 6 thru 8 up until the late 80's/early 90's. Daimler, after trying to sell their butt-ugly Mercedes trucks here in the USA, purchased Freightliner and knew they had to get rid of that pesky Ford if they wanted to ever make Freightliner profitable. So they hoodwinked Ford into selling off the L-series (after they had just retooled and redesigned it in 1996!) for a paltry $300 million! And around that time or not long after, Daimler also purchased Chrysler so now they had a full line of trucks from class 1 Dodge/Ram to class 8 Freightliner. I'm repeating what I said many years ago about this, but it needs repeating so that new readers will know and maybe some Ford truck bigwigs will get their heads out of their rear ends! So continuing: When up-until-then loyal Ford customers in class 8 found themselves scrambling to look elsewhere, they were also made aware by Daimler/Freightliner salespeople who said "hey, you know we also sell class 1 thru 5 trucks -- and cars -- through our Dodge/Ram brand." That is one reason why Dodge/Ram has been leading Ford in class 3 thru 5 for many years!!!! Ford has lost so many class 3 thru 5 sales over the years due to this, it's not even funny! They've also lost class 1 & 2 and even car sales. And they definitely have lost a lot of class 6 & 7 sales!!! Up until 2000, all the cars and trucks at the MDC water district in CT were Fords, and CL&P (now Eversource) and the CTDOT were also 99 percent Fords. Not now! They all have Ford, Chevy, Dodge light trucks and cars. Eversource has a few Ford mediums, but that's it! Okay, I'm done! Why do I have to get myself all riled up about this!?

.

"Enhancing investor value" is a misnomer....and it was Jack nASSers' dream to be a multi-outlet car company...he was the one that decided that Ford Heavy Truck, while making a profit and earning its keep, was not making enough profit to keep investors happy....here is a news flash....investors (aka: Wall Street) will never be happy with Ford since their stock doesn't mean shit when compared to the true value of the "family stock portfolio" that can only be owned by Ford family members.

[7Mary3]

 

Renault-Nissan and FCA also divested from trucks.

 

Daimler, VW and Volvo (and Toyota and Tata) identified trucks and buses as a strategic area for them so they continue to invest in them.

 

Many believe (and I do too) that both Daimler and VW will spin their heavy truck units off over the next few years. Volvo actually did the opposite- they wanted to stay in trucks so they sold their underperforming car unit off. That isn't to say Ford and GM can't manufacture light and medium duty commercial trucks profitably.

[bzcat]

 

Many believe (and I do too) that both Daimler and VW will spin their heavy truck units off over the next few years. Volvo actually did the opposite- they wanted to stay in trucks so they sold their underperforming car unit off. That isn't to say Ford and GM can't manufacture light and medium duty commercial trucks profitably.

 

Correct... despite Ford getting rid of US heavy truck operations years ago, it is still one of the world's leading commercial vehicle seller due to its strong presence in vans and pickup trucks. And there is surely no reason why it can't make decent money on medium duty in the US. And of course we know Ford actually went back into heavy trucks with Otosan and JMC investments.

 

I'm not really sure what VW wants to do. Scania and MAN and VW Trucks in Brazil are all very healthy and profitable business but if VW wants Navistar, it may change the strategy. VW wants Navistar for one obvious reason... to bulk up and compete with Daimler which has strong North American presence. VW Group does not participate in trucks here and they see Navistar as the ticket in. The one area I think VW has an opening in the US/North America is in buses. There is still a couple of independents (New Flyer, Gillig, REV Eldorado etc) that seems ripe for takeover.

 

Daimler trucks is similarly a very profitable part of Daimler group. FUSO and Freightliner, and Mercedes trucks are the leading brands on each continent and its investment in BAIC Foton, the leading truck brand in China is also paying dividend. It's a formidable business and competitor whether it stays within Daimler group or not.

[Bob Rosadini]

More bad news-heavy trucks- April, down 36.9%. YTD, down 28.6% Supposedly "commercial vehicles" is on the keeper list right?

 

Perhaps they are defining "commercial" as class 1-5. And IF they are, huge mistake IMO. So many companies operate large class 1-7 fleets-with a few 8's thrown in for specific applications. If they kiss 6 and 7 goodbye, there go a lot of the lower classes as well.

[Sevensecondsuv]

The 7.x doesn't make a lot of sense without f650/750 in the picture.

 

But yeah, another example of Ford dives into something headfirst but can't ever seem to follow through when continued investment is needed a few years later.

 

I too long for the pre-Nasser Ford. I've still got some of those trucks and tractors so I just pretend the last 20 years didn't happen.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Sevensecondsuv

[Bob Rosadini]

 

Correct... despite Ford getting rid of US heavy truck operations years ago, it is still one of the world's leading commercial vehicle seller due to its strong presence in vans and pickup trucks. And there is surely no reason why it can't make decent money on medium duty in the US. And of course we know Ford actually went back into heavy trucks with Otosan and JMC investments.

 

I'm not really sure what VW wants to do. Scania and MAN and VW Trucks in Brazil are all very healthy and profitable business but if VW wants Navistar, it may change the strategy. VW wants Navistar for one obvious reason... to bulk up and compete with Daimler which has strong North American presence. VW Group does not participate in trucks here and they see Navistar as the ticket in. The one area I think VW has an opening in the US/North America is in buses. There is still a couple of independents (New Flyer, Gillig, REV Eldorado etc) that seems ripe for takeover.

 

Daimler trucks is similarly a very profitable part of Daimler group. FUSO and Freightliner, and Mercedes trucks are the leading brands on each continent and its investment in BAIC Foton, the leading truck brand in China is also paying dividend. It's a formidable business and competitor whether it stays within Daimler group or not.

Guys- I don't get it-Daimler would spin off its heavy truck business? They for sure are kicking ass here in the US-and I have to believe the same goes in the rest of the world. Spin offs take place out of necessity don't they? And VW?-the same-why did they just aquire the 16% stake in Navistar? As some have correctly pointed out, I would assume to get a piece of the US market. Monkey see-monkey do-if Daimler can do it, why can't they?

 

And I think someone pointed out Fiat's "spin off" of Iveco. Is it a spin off when the Agnelli family I still believe remains the owner-however you want to draw the org chart.

 

Oh back to ancient history, when Daimler took Jac the Knife up on his very generous offer, for what 300 million, they in essence bought say 10% of class 8 and say 18-20% of class 7. I remember Hebe who was the top dog at Daimler US making the statement that Ford was the leader in the vocational market.

 

Well for sure we know who the vocational leader is today don't we. And I don't think they give them away.

[bzcat]

I for one don't think there is any merit to the rumor that Daimler will spin off the truck operation. Trucks and buses are a core part of their growth strategy.

 

VW has talked about separating trucks and cars operation for a while, mainly because MAN and Scania didn't want to get along and the thinking was that a spin off was a credible threat to forced their separate management to cooperate cohesively under the existing VW structure.

 

As to why VW will only want a piece of Navistar and not the whole thing... that seems obvious. VW doesn't want the legal liability on its books. If they purchased Navistar, they will have to consolidate the Navistar financials with VW. If they just purchase a big equity stake, they only have to list it as an investment on the balance sheet. They can still influence the strategic direction of the company if they have enough board seats but they don't have to deal with the financial headaches and negative balance sheet impact.

[Bob Rosadini]

I for one don't think there is any merit to the rumor that Daimler will spin off the truck operation. Trucks and buses are a core part of their growth strategy.

 

VW has talked about separating trucks and cars operation for a while, mainly because MAN and Scania didn't want to get along and the thinking was that a spin off was a credible threat to forced their separate management to cooperate cohesively under the existing VW structure.

 

As to why VW will only want a piece of Navistar and not the whole thing... that seems obvious. VW doesn't want the legal liability on its books. If they purchased Navistar, they will have to consolidate the Navistar financials with VW. If they just purchase a big equity stake, they only have to list it as an investment on the balance sheet. They can still influence the strategic direction of the company if they have enough board seats but they don't have to deal with the financial headaches and negative balance sheet impact.

right-17% is the magic number I think

[Bob Rosadini]

From HDT

 

Heavy Duty Trucking (HDT) / May 1, 2018

ROUSH CleanTech will offer a Ford F-650 medium-duty truck that's powered solely by a battery-electric powertrain, the vehicle modifier has announced.

With the move, the company expands its alternative fuel offerings to include zero-emission electric vehicles. ROUSH CleanTech has been converting trucks and vans to run on alternative fuels such as propane autogas and compressed natural gas.

Built on the Ford F-650 chassis, ROUSH CleanTech’s new fully electric vehicles will have a lithium ion battery system of up to 225 kilowatt hours and 700 volts. Depending on the vehicle’s GVWR, the average range will be up to 120 miles with a top speed of 75 mph.

The AC permanent magnet motor will have a continuous-rated power of 150 kilowatts (200 horsepower), with a peak-rated power of 250 kilowatts (335 horsepower).

“An electric battery option for medium-duty trucks and buses is a great fit as there is increasing demand in this gross vehicle weight range with very few OEM solutions,” said Todd Mouw, president of ROUSH CleanTech. “This builds from our robust foundation already in place at ROUSH CleanTech that supports more than 1,200 customers and 19,000 propane and natural gas units on the road.”

[SteelyD]

Jack the empire builder. Wonder if it really exists. A CNG 7.3 has been talked about. Just not by a guy in a funny hat.

[theoldwizard]

Jack the empire builder. Wonder if it really exists. A CNG 7.3 has been talked about. Just not by a guy in a funny hat.

I work for a CNG conversion company at one time. CNG is dead ... for now. The cost of the tanks and plumbing far exceeded the cost savings of the fuel.

 

UPS had a small experimental fleet of Class 8 LPG trucks. I wonder what happened to them ?

[Bob Rosadini]

Jack the empire builder. Wonder if it really exists. A CNG 7.3 has been talked about. Just not by a guy in a funny hat.

Keep in mind the "Cat in the hat" is a big time player beyond Roush-Fenway. Without him my bet is Ford's presence in commercial trucks would b even less.

[Bob Rosadini]

I work for a CNG conversion company at one time. CNG is dead ... for now. The cost of the tanks and plumbing far exceeded the cost savings of the fuel.

 

UPS had a small experimental fleet of Class 8 LPG trucks. I wonder what happened to them ?

After I retired my company had a big trial in LNG. Went so far as to buy our own tanker to supply the system. This was motivated by a desire to go green with all of the "positive PR". The fact that every pound added to a tandem tractor was one less pound of payload-and in a bulk transport operation that is a real number as opposed to dry freight where you might cube out before you weigh out.

 

I don't think the trial lasted 3 years.

[SteelyD]

Keep in mind the "Cat in the hat" is a big time player beyond Roush-Fenway. Without him my bet is Ford's presence in commercial trucks would b even less.

The Yates legacy is the big time player. Penske and Stewart Haas are the top Ford teams.

[Bob Rosadini]

The Yates legacy is the big time player. Penske and Stewart Haas are the top Ford teams.

No argument. I'm just saying that Roush has a very significant presence when it comes to providing engineering support to Ford and probably a lot of other companies.

 

I think Roush is the basis for all of Fords alternative fuel options when it comes to trucks. In the old days, KTP built the complete propane medium duty-no such thing today.

[theoldwizard]

UPS had a small experimental fleet of Class 8 LPG trucks. I wonder what happened to them ?

 

 

I don't think the trial lasted 3 years.

My memory is not always the best, but I recall that UPS had test fleet somewhere between NV and CA. They had a transfer station is "no where" NV. It was required, because it was at a location where drivers had to stop driving because of hours on the road. The problem was, the cost of bringing in fuel for the dozens of trucks that stopped there every day was enormous !

 

Rumor was, there a natural gas pipeline nearby. Someone (UPS ? Natural gas supplier ?) paid to tap the big pipe and also paid (BIG $$$) for the liquidation equipment. In theory, this should have been a good but very unique niche.

[twintornados]

 

 

My memory is not always the best, but I recall that UPS had test fleet somewhere between NV and CA. They had a transfer station is "no where" NV. It was required, because it was at a location where drivers had to stop driving because of hours on the road. The problem was, the cost of bringing in fuel for the dozens of trucks that stopped there every day was enormous !

 

Rumor was, there a natural gas pipeline nearby. Someone (UPS ? Natural gas supplier ?) paid to tap the big pipe and also paid (BIG $$$) for the liquidation equipment. In theory, this should have been a good but very unique niche.

.

Sounds like it would be cheaper to build a Tesla style supercharging station / tractor trailer yard and utilize a Class 8 EV tractor...

Edited May 5, 2018 by twintornados

[theoldwizard]

.

Sounds like it would be cheaper to build a Tesla style supercharging station / tractor trailer yard and utilize a Class 8 EV tractor...

Range for that Tesla Class 8 tractor would be the big issue !

[twintornados]

Range for that Tesla Class 8 tractor would be the big issue !

.

According to Tesla, it will have an "up to" 500 mile range.

 

http://www.trucker.com/trucks/tesla-s-class-8-semi-does-it-have-juice-do-job

 

 

...Elon Musk – CEO of Tesla Motors – introduced a long-awaited all-electric Class 8 highway tractor dubbed the “Semi” that reportedly has up to 500 miles worth of range, which is a “worst-case scenario” based on the truck hauling a fully-loaded trailer and traveling at maximum highway speeds.

[lfeg]

Wonder how much the battery weighs.