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Cadillac Introduces New CTS


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I don't know, but it looks like Cadillac is trying to emulate the two dominate luxury sellers here....BMW and MB. Certainly Cadillac has a long way to go before it will be considered a Tier One luxury company like BMW, MB, and Lexus. Both in lineup offered and sales. Just as more pedestrian brands like Chevy and Ford offer small, medium, and large vehicles, luxury makers are doing same with sedans and sport utilities. Certainly there is risk as brand loses cachet with no exclusivity anymore. BMW's and MB's are a dime a dozen on road anymore.

The ultimate goal should be higher sales at higher ATP's. So far the ATS is accomplishing neither of those for Cadillac. It could pan out in the long run, but not yet.

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Isn't the new CTS bigger? So now we have small, medium size, and big in ATS, CTS, and XTS. Two are RWD sport sedans so to speak, and one a luxo cruiser. So two offer domestic alternative to Tier One BMW and one alternative to MKS and any other luxo cruiser out there. One glaring omission though is a compact CVU where the high volume is. Seems like money better spent here than new Escalade. Buick gets subcompact CUV Encore and Cadillac gets gigantic Escalade. Looks like maybe Lincoln wil get out its new MKC before Cadillac does. That is glaring error for Cadillac.

FB, you might be able to confirm this but from what I'm reading, the new CTS is considerably larger than the previous Sigma based mid sized CTS.

If anything, the new CTS is much closer to XTS and acts as a RWD/AWD performance counterpoint to XTS sales, not sure how that will work..

 

One thing is for sure, the new TTV6 in the CTS is sure to send some shock waves through Lincoln and Ford

who appear to have been happy presenting the FWD/AWD 3.5 Ecoboost with 360 odd hp and around 360 lb ft torque.

The first step in a response could be to to upgrade SHO/MKS EB to the torque level of the F150 Ecoboost, I think tthat

increasing torque to 420 lb ft in the main driving range would go a long way to dulling the edge of the CTS TTV6.

 

Holding the F150 EB engine to around 360 hp would appear to be an electronic limit which is can be varied as needed.

I recall rumors that the development engine actually produced power and torque well above current limits which were

imposed due transmission reliability concerns...this could get interesting.

Edited by jpd80
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I don't know, but it looks like Cadillac is trying to emulate the two dominate luxury sellers here....BMW and MB. Certainly Cadillac has a long way to go before it will be considered a Tier One luxury company like BMW, MB, and Lexus. Both in lineup offered and sales. Just as more pedestrian brands like Chevy and Ford offer small, medium, and large vehicles, luxury makers are doing same with sedans and sport utilities. Certainly there is risk as brand loses cachet with no exclusivity anymore. BMW's and MB's are a dime a dozen on road anymore.

 

I still don't understand how lexus became a luxury brand....... I didn't even know they existed until like 6 years ago... and I would have laughed if someone told me that ugly gold crossover was a luxury vehicle.

 

 

BMW, Mercedes, Lambo, Ferrari.... Come on! Lexus, really?

Edited by probowler
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Here we go with the infantile GM bashing. How about at least waiting for seeing it in person before taking pot shots at 2D pics? Jeesh, this site is all about emotion and little thought.

 

Well, from that rear shot, all you have to do is look at the ATS and XTS and you can see the CTS rear more clearly. It's certainly nothing exciting to look at.

 

I appreciate the changes to the A&S theme to make things a little more svelte, and I've said as much in praising the new ATS.

 

From what I've seen of the new CTS, the ass end looks dull.

 

I definitely agree with you on the A&S theme changes. Much better looking than the blocky styling before which (IMO) does not age well at all.

 

But yes, I'm with you on the rear look.

 

My parents were shopping for a luxury cross over and I mentioned Lexus rs350, caddy srx and a lincoln mkx. I said look at them all and drive them all. The whole time I am thinking they will come home with a lexus. These are Toyota buyers to the core and have been for 25 years with excellent results with the last one being the best of the best. Instead, they come home with a Cadillac SRX. I was somewhat shocked. I asked about how was the Lincoln and they said they never even looked at one. When I ask why they said they didnt want a expensive Ford that was no better. This is their perception of Lincoln right or wrong.

 

The SRX is not my cup of tea but I have not found any real faults in it. The competition is stiff here. I can pick them apart with the best of them but I so far cant find much to gripe about. Lincoln has a perception problem and if you cant get somebody in the show room let alone drive them then you have a problem. I dont know if they are going to pull out or not. I agree with you that Cadillac has a head start here.

 

Didn't even look at the MKX? I think it's a better car than either of those two. Had a SRX rental once and wasn't impressed with it.

 

In the case of the current MKX, aside from a handful of options, it's right. That perception, however, is flat out wrong in regards to the MKZ or upcoming MKC. It's a stigma Lincoln's marketing department needs to overcome, but it can't do it until the products are out there en masse.

 

I do think they did themselves a disservice by not even looking at the MKX though. Heck, in my opinion even the Edge in higher trims stacks up well against either the RX or SRX.

 

Heck, Lincoln has already taken a huge first step in changing perceptions that seems to be ignored: they discontinued the Town Car.

 

I agree with all that's been said here.

 

Ford is a profitable company. Does that mean we can assume Ford of Europe is doing fine then?

 

 

But 6 or 7 new products in a similar timeframe is apparently diddy-dallying? And I'd like to know how they define "new products" and at what point did they start counting? I seriously doubt the XTS or ATS will be redesigned by the 2015 model year, or are they already counting those as 2 of the 8? And if so, do the SRX and Escalade see redesigns before the 2015 model year? Or are they just counting feature additions like new powertrains as "new products"? The only truly "new" product I'm aware of after the ATS is the upcoming ELR, which still only brings their product portfolio to 6 vehicles, unless you're going to stretch and call the Escalade EXT and ESV their own models. Lots of questions remain on that one.

 

Wasn't Cadillac to get a version of the Lambda? Perhaps that's one?

 

It's a shame that Ford didn't try Ecoboost engines in Navigator and LT, I think that would have made a world of difference,

and yes a great engine can make a car or truck that much better and more desirable..

 

I'm surprised the Expy and Navigator didn't receive the new powertrains when the F-150 upgraded its powertrains. As for EcoBoost in the LT - I'm pretty sure it was discontinued (well, except in Mexico) before EcoBoost even came out?

 

FB, you might be able to confirm this but from what I'm reading, the new CTS is considerably larger than the previous Sigma based mid sized CTS.

If anything, the new CTS is much closer to XTS and acts as a RWD/AWD performance counterpoint to XTS sales, not sure how that will work..

 

One thing is for sure, the new TTV6 in the CTS is sure to send some shock waves through Lincoln and Ford

who appear to have been happy presenting the FWD/AWD 3.5 Ecoboost with 360 odd hp and around 360 lb ft torque.

The first step in a response could be to to upgrade SHO/MKS EB to the torque level of the F150 Ecoboost, I think tthat

increasing torque to 420 lb ft in the main driving range would go a long way to dulling the edge of the CTS TTV6.

 

Holding the F150 EB engine to around 360 hp would appear to be an electronic limit which is can be varied as needed.

I recall rumors that the development engine actually produced power and torque well above current limits which were

imposed due transmission reliability concerns...this could get interesting.

 

I do believe the new CTS is to be larger than the current one to make more room for the ATS below it.

 

Isn't the power output for the 3.5EB applications thus far limited by the transmissions it's being paired with? I guess you did get to that point at the end of your statement....

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Wasn't Cadillac to get a version of the Lambda? Perhaps that's one?

 

The Cadillac Lambda was actually a proposed Escalade replacement, to be built off the gen2 Lambda platform (which was supposed to have debuted next year). The Lambda2 program has been killed, and the next-gen Traverse/Acadia/Enclave will now ride on a modified Epsilon platform (think Taurus/Explorer relationship), so Escalade continues to be a part of the GMT program.

 

Cadillac will get a small CUV under the SRX (likely Alpha-based), a new SRX (possibly moving to SWB Episilon when Equinox/Terrain move to Delta II), and the long-rumored "Omega" based flagship product. CTS Coupe is also spinning off into its own model designation.

 

 

I'm surprised the Expy and Navigator didn't receive the new powertrains when the F-150 upgraded its powertrains. As for EcoBoost in the LT - I'm pretty sure it was discontinued (well, except in Mexico) before EcoBoost even came out?

 

They were supposed to, but the MCE was shelved at the last minute with the Expedition/Navigator programs were placed under review.

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I wouldn't be surprised to see the XTS disappear as die on the vine over the next few years with the CTS being the flagship Cadillac sedan. To my eyes at least, the XTS, new Impala and LaCrosse look too similar and all three are part of a dying segment. The large sedan will die with the baby boomers like myself. Odd though that small pickups and large sedans do the death spiral and leave auto scene as new vehicles anyway. A few auto companies will keep them niche vehicles, but I doubt if high volume auto companies will keep them around as in putting much needed development money into them at expense of growing segments.

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I wouldn't be surprised to see the XTS disappear as die on the vine over the next few years with the CTS being the flagship Cadillac sedan. To my eyes at least, the XTS, new Impala and LaCrosse look too similar and all three are part of a dying segment. The large sedan will die with the baby boomers like myself. Odd though that small pickups and large sedans do the death spiral and leave auto scene as new vehicles anyway. A few auto companies will keep them niche vehicles, but I doubt if high volume auto companies will keep them around as in putting much needed development money into them at expense of growing segments.

If there's one place large sedans will absolutely still survive, it is in the luxury segment.

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I wouldn't be surprised to see the XTS disappear as die on the vine over the next few years with the CTS being the flagship Cadillac sedan. To my eyes at least, the XTS, new Impala and LaCrosse look too similar and all three are part of a dying segment. The large sedan will die with the baby boomers like myself. Odd though that small pickups and large sedans do the death spiral and leave auto scene as new vehicles anyway. A few auto companies will keep them niche vehicles, but I doubt if high volume auto companies will keep them around as in putting much needed development money into them at expense of growing segments.

 

 

If there's one place large sedans will absolutely still survive, it is in the luxury segment.

 

^ This.

Also, as I understand it, Cadillac has resurrected their large-RWD-sedan program. We should hear something within a few years' time.

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The large luxury sedan market is also contracting, although certainly profitable.

 

Right now, it's hard to imagine Lincoln without a large mid-level luxury sedan like the MKS and they can't afford to loose more customers, especially since they embody such traditional luxury car values, they can't really act as the leading indicator.

Edited by BORG
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The large luxury sedan market is also contracting, although certainly profitable.

 

Right now, it's hard to imagine Lincoln without a large mid-level luxury sedan like the MKS and they can't afford to loose more customers, especially since they embody such traditional luxury car values, they can't really act as the leading indicator.

Every player in the luxury market has a large car. S-class, 7-series, A8, MKS, XTS, etc. Even Acura is re-entering the large luxury sedan market with the RLX.

 

There's still something to be said about size equating to luxury to many buyers.

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If there's one place large sedans will absolutely still survive, it is in the luxury segment.

 

If that's the case, then Lincoln will have to come up with something much better than dud seller MKS, and I suspect by next year or so XTS won't sell much better than MKS sells now. Maybe to old guys like myself, MKS and XTS look nice, but the growth is in ATS, CTS, and MKZ segments. So it seems to me both Ford and GM are going to have to do better job of emulating best from Germany and at more affordable price. Remains to be seen if both are willing to make that effort and investment. If not, then why bother with vehicles like MKS than languish on dealer lots even with great lease steals.

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No, I'm sure Lincoln plans to just keep selling the current MKS for all eternity, you know, like they are doing with the 2010 MKZ.

 

Uh, I'm worried they will just do another FWD sedan with redesigned sheet metal and more features. It may sell well for one year like MKS, and then back to very tepid sales. Lincoln needs something better and more radical like what RWD would offer. FWD sedans look very similar after awhile. Fine in lower price range, but not up in more rarified air.

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Uh, I'm worried they will just do another FWD sedan with redesigned sheet metal and more features. It may sell well for one year like MKS, and then back to very tepid sales. Lincoln needs something better and more radical like what RWD would offer. FWD sedans look very similar after awhile. Fine in lower price range, but not up in more rarified air.

Why would you assume that it'll have tepid sales after one year? MKS initially only sold well for a short time because, frankly, it wasn't exactly a great car. FWD or RWD had and will continue to have little to do with it.

 

And what "rarified air" do you speak of? Does that air include the Audi A6 that starts at $43,000 with FWD?

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Why would you assume that it'll have tepid sales after one year? MKS initially only sold well for a short time because, frankly, it wasn't exactly a great car. FWD or RWD had and will continue to have little to do with it.

 

And what "rarified air" do you speak of? Does that air include the Audi A6 that starts at $43,000 with FWD?

 

The A6 with its longitudinal motor and lower center of gravity profile is more desirable, and the MKS with its much higher profile that makes my Taurus look like low slung sports car is not. I'm not sure where Lincoln should aim at, but I suspect Cadillac for now. Guess we will have to see what platform the next MKS goes to if there is one. I would say at the very least the next flagship Lincoln sedan should not be called the MKS. And it better be sleeker and sportier if it wants to attract the under 65 crowd. Whatever Lincoln does with MKS, it has one mighty challenge ahead. And I hope it's not an XTS like vehicle with Ford badge.

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The A6 with its longitudinal motor and lower center of gravity profile is more desirable, and the MKS with its much higher profile that makes my Taurus look like low slung sports car is not. I'm not sure where Lincoln should aim at, but I suspect Cadillac for now. Guess we will have to see what platform the next MKS goes to if there is one. I would say at the very least the next flagship Lincoln sedan should not be called the MKS. And it better be sleeker and sportier if it wants to attract the under 65 crowd. Whatever Lincoln does with MKS, it has one mighty challenge ahead. And I hope it's not an XTS like vehicle with Ford badge.

Lincoln should aim its vehicles at potential customers, not at other vehicles.

 

As for the rest of your banter, well, we know you're not going to buy one, so...

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The Cadillac Lambda was actually a proposed Escalade replacement, to be built off the gen2 Lambda platform (which was supposed to have debuted next year). The Lambda2 program has been killed, and the next-gen Traverse/Acadia/Enclave will now ride on a modified Epsilon platform (think Taurus/Explorer relationship), so Escalade continues to be a part of the GMT program.

 

Cadillac will get a small CUV under the SRX (likely Alpha-based), a new SRX (possibly moving to SWB Episilon when Equinox/Terrain move to Delta II), and the long-rumored "Omega" based flagship product. CTS Coupe is also spinning off into its own model designation.

 

 

 

They were supposed to, but the MCE was shelved at the last minute with the Expedition/Navigator programs were placed under review.

 

Well......it is GM we're talking about here, so who knows what they'll end up doing :P :stirpot:

 

You'd think at least the powertrains could be implemented before the new models, but perhaps at this point I guess it's not worth it?

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Wescoent made an interesting statement on GMI. Basically, that GM is siphoning profits off of Buick, to prop up Cadillac............... which is bleeding money.

 

This bears watching.

 

As for FB and Lincoln. I guess Lincoln is supposed to copy Cadillac which is copying BMW. We all know that a copy of a copy is the only way luxury works. Noone else wants anything other than a copy of a copy, and no one wants anything other than BMW style luxury. That is why BMW and Cadillac are the only luxury brands out there.

 

How about we see where Lincoln is going................ and base their success or failure on what happens. I know, I know, silly me.................. how dumb to want to see the actual plan unfold, instead of calling it a failure before it even gets its feet under it.

 

I greatly dislike A&S, from a design perspective, and have made no secret of that fact. That said, I like the current CTS better than the new one. It looks more athletic. The new one has a distinct Mercedes vibe, and at some angles, looks very disproportionate. The interior, while nice, is continuing GM's theme of way too much going on. Way too many surfaces, and way too many accent trims. Chrome, wood, suede in two different colors, plastic, etc.

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Wescoent made an interesting statement on GMI. Basically, that GM is siphoning profits off of Buick, to prop up Cadillac............... which is bleeding money.

 

This bears watching.

 

As for FB and Lincoln. I guess Lincoln is supposed to copy Cadillac which is copying BMW. We all know that a copy of a copy is the only way luxury works. Noone else wants anything other than a copy of a copy, and no one wants anything other than BMW style luxury. That is why BMW and Cadillac are the only luxury brands out there.

 

How about we see where Lincoln is going................ and base their success or failure on what happens. I know, I know, silly me.................. how dumb to want to see the actual plan unfold, instead of calling it a failure before it even gets its feet under it.

 

I greatly dislike A&S, from a design perspective, and have made no secret of that fact. That said, I like the current CTS better than the new one. It looks more athletic. The new one has a distinct Mercedes vibe, and at some angles, looks very disproportionate. The interior, while nice, is continuing GM's theme of way too much going on. Way too many surfaces, and way too many accent trims. Chrome, wood, suede in two different colors, plastic, etc.

 

I'm glad someone else sees the disproportionate aspects of the new design.

 

Material quality seems good - there are quite a few different colors and textures there, but I think they go alright together - you could eliminate the upper suede trim to simplify it and clean it up a bit.

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I'm glad someone else sees the disproportionate aspects of the new design.

 

Material quality seems good - there are quite a few different colors and textures there, but I think they go alright together - you could eliminate the upper suede trim to simplify it and clean it up a bit.

I have to agree after looking at the pictures again. But maybe it will look less disproportionate in person. Still I really like this car. I even like the back of the car. I also like how it uses the Ciel concept's looks.

 

And to Richard's point. They shouldn't have cheaped out on the Malibu. I saw it in person and it's a step backwards in every way from the old model. As much as I like Buick and Caddy, Chevy is in a very bad position in my humble opinion.

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I have to agree after looking at the pictures again. But maybe it will look less disproportionate in person. Still I really like this car. I even like the back of the car. I also like how it uses the Ciel concept's looks.

 

And to Richard's point. They shouldn't have cheaped out on the Malibu. I saw it in person and it's a step backwards in every way from the old model. As much as I like Buick and Caddy, Chevy is in a very bad position in my humble opinion.

 

As I said, I'll reserve final judgment until I see it in person, as some designs simply look better in real life and pictures can't properly capture it, and perhaps it's just these photos, who knows? But from what I'm seeing so far, I dislike the overly large grille and undersized headlights (in proportion to the grille) - an aspect of the Ciel that I also did not like, I might add. That's not even mentioning the fact that from the A-pillar back, there's nothing special about it - looks like every other Cadillac, and doesn't match the more aggressive front.

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Wescoent made an interesting statement on GMI. Basically, that GM is siphoning profits off of Buick, to prop up Cadillac............... which is bleeding money.

 

This bears watching.

 

As for FB and Lincoln. I guess Lincoln is supposed to copy Cadillac which is copying BMW. We all know that a copy of a copy is the only way luxury works. Noone else wants anything other than a copy of a copy, and no one wants anything other than BMW style luxury. That is why BMW and Cadillac are the only luxury brands out there.

 

How about we see where Lincoln is going................ and base their success or failure on what happens. I know, I know, silly me.................. how dumb to want to see the actual plan unfold, instead of calling it a failure before it even gets its feet under it.

 

I greatly dislike A&S, from a design perspective, and have made no secret of that fact. That said, I like the current CTS better than the new one. It looks more athletic. The new one has a distinct Mercedes vibe, and at some angles, looks very disproportionate. The interior, while nice, is continuing GM's theme of way too much going on. Way too many surfaces, and way too many accent trims. Chrome, wood, suede in two different colors, plastic, etc.

 

While I enjoy reading Wescoent's post, I'm curious as to how he determined that Cadillac is "bleeding money." It's not as though GM's divisions are separate entities, with their own manufacturing and engineering facilities (which was the case through the mid-1960s). Today they exist largely as marketing entities.

 

Two Cadillacs - the Escalade and SRX - share platforms and, in some cases, drivetrains, with higher volume vehicles. I can't see how GM could be losing money on the SRX and Escalade, both of which sell reasonably well.

 

Cadillac kept the Sigma platform in production for a decade, and the CTS, at least, sold reasonably well. It's not hard to believe that GM at least broke even on that platform.

 

If any division is redundant, it's Buick. Chevrolet needs to move upmarket with Titanium and Platinum level trim package for its vehicles, but Buick stands in the way.

Edited by grbeck
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