fordtech1 Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I heard the other day from a reliable source that Ford is going away from the dual clutch 6sp in the Focus/Fiesta. Anyone else hear that? The complaints have dropped significantly since the updates/repairs. I did find that most of the sales people are not selling these vehicles explaining that this transmission is an automatic shifting manual transmission. When I explain that to most customers, they looked surprised, and have an expression of "that explains so much". But like most things if it is not embraced by the masses it will be dumped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transitman Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 The last line in your post says it all. It goes to show how uninformed the average car buyer is about the totality of a vehicle and make decisions on looks and mpg's. I wonder how many people had no idea that certain 500's and all Freestyle's used a CVT? How will a 6 speed auto (if that's the replacement) affect mileage in a car that's sold as a high mileage vehicle because of the DCT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevys Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I have not heard that and will believe it when I see it. What is your "reliable source"? Ford shoots themselves in the foot all the time with stuff like this. Wish they would toss out the MT82 also from China. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transitman Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) Deleted due to stupidity. Edited March 1, 2013 by transitman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) I have not heard that and will believe it when I see it. What is your "reliable source"? Ford shoots themselves in the foot all the time with stuff like this. Wish they would toss out the MT82 also from China. I was surprised myself. Time will tell. Edited March 1, 2013 by fordtech1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_in_va Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I actually put this question to a Ford engineer on Autoline After Hours. Clip here: He says they are sticking with it. Personally, I think it will continue through the current Focus and Fiesta model cycles but then be replaced with a 9-speed or something like that when those cars are redesigned. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 It was a casual conversation and that's what I was told. Now unless they info they had was incorrect. However, being a Ford employee, I would think is in the know. I'm sure it will finish the cycle on these cars until at least a mce. But cvt was supposed to be something for longer than 3 model years 05-07 also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 It would be bad idea to end powershift/clutchless manual trans. PDK trans in luxury sport vehicles have really become popular and are putting manuals out of business. I see Ford offering PDK type trans on Mustang with paddles/floor mounted shifter with auto blip. I would hope this trans finds it way to Fiesta, Focus, and Fusion ST models. Maybe it's a little too sophisticated for more mundane driver, so make it optional on SE and Titanium models and standard on Mustang and ST models. I had the chance to drive a BMW M6 clutchless manual with auto blip, and it was a blast. I just used the floor mounted shifter, and you barely had to touch it to upshift or downshit into other gear, and you could hold gear as long as you wanted. They are expensive trans, but would make for nice option over conventional auto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonM Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 The 1.0 EB is supposed to get a regular 6 speed auto but the other engines will stay with the DCT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) Double post Edited March 1, 2013 by fordtech1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 On a related note, talking about the lackluster sales of the new Dodge Dart, Sergio Marchionne wondered if the DCT in the Dart was "too European" for American tastes. Chrysler/Fiat will soon drop the DCT and go to a conventional torque converter auto tranny for the Dart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 On a related note, talking about the lackluster sales of the new Dodge Dart, Sergio Marchionne wondered if the DCT in the Dart was "too European" for American tastes. Chrysler/Fiat will soon drop the DCT and go to a conventional torque converter auto tranny for the Dart. He should ask BMW/MB/Porsche/Audi what the take rate is on clutchless manuals on their vehicles sold in America? You get the best of all worlds...you can select D and let the trans shift for you as normal auto would, or use gear selector as manual and hold each gear as long as you like, or finally use paddle shifters if that is better for you. Ford is not backing down on MFT, so why should it on Focus and Fiesta? In fact, improve it and add it as option on Fusion and use German type PDK on Mustang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I wouldn't be surprised if the DCT is phased out in the NA market. Ford did not include it as an option in the Escape. I would further suggest that proper market research would've kept this transmission from ever being offered here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Reports in Europe is that Ford has decided to go for the US six-speed planetary automatic 6F paired with the one-liter engine. Also Getrag announce a new wet clutch 6DCT150, the six-speed, lower-torque derivative of the new-generation 7DCT300 seven-speed core model. “This (6DCT150) transmission is aimed at Asia, where in many markets the power-to-weight ratio of vehicles is often low, and overloading is also common,” DeVincent said. “A dry clutch solution would not be appropriate where overloading is concerned.” DeVincent, who was an engineer at Ford until he joined Getrag in 2006, did not give a launch date for the new engine/automatic pairings, nor state which transmissions would be used on other larger European Ford models. source http://drivelinenews.com/news/ford-fiesta-to-use-dry-dct-while-focus-will-have-planetary-auto/ The new wet clutch for Aisa market is interesting news in that VW is in a hell of a fight in that market with very unhappy dry clutch DSG equipped vehicles owners. Latest news reports gives me the impression VW is in for a very costly recall scenario. Which might be the reason why the new wet clutch from Getrag DCT150 is being developed most likely for Ford Asia vehicles, and who knows maybe this could be a replacement in North America Focus variants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I wouldn't be surprised if the DCT is phased out in the NA market. Ford did not include it as an option in the Escape.Actually, I was surprised it made it into the Focus ! During development is was aimed at B-sized vehicles (Fiesta) only. Engineers have been holding their breath on clutch durability, but I have not heard any "bad news" ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 The dry clutch DCTs have an inherent design issue. NOT a problem, but an issue. Dry running friction combinations have a significant difference in static and dynamic characteristics. And there is some wear at each engagement that gives you a finite life, so you want relatively abrupt shifts to minimize the transition and wear. This can be managed with the proper control strategy (of both engine and transmission), but it can lead to a lower overall efficiency than a very well designed torque converter/planetary automatic. Now, wet clutch DCT are another thing altogether - much better matching of static to dynamic conditions, and near infinite life (in industrial applications I have seen hundreds of millions of engagement cycles resulting in nothing but break in wear). But cost goes up. The other benefit of torque converter/planetary automatics is that the torque converter can also be used as a device to damp torsional vibrations, and small displacement 3 and 4 cylinder engines running at low RPMs can generate some interesting profiles, especially when DI and high compression are in the mix. Then if you add diesel you get even more torsional vibrations. Low NVH sells cars today - no body wants a car that has shakes and vibrations when operating where fuel economy is best, so I see dry DCTs becoming less favored in markets like North America as time goes on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) Heck, just replace the 2.0 DI and powershift with 1.6 Ecoboost and auto/manual trans from the Fusion. Easy 40 mpg with more power and more torque. Win-Win-Win Edited March 1, 2013 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 The dry clutch DCTs have an inherent design issue. NOT a problem, but an issue. Dry running friction combinations have a significant difference in static and dynamic characteristics. And there is some wear at each engagement that gives you a finite life, so you want relatively abrupt shifts to minimize the transition and wear. This can be managed with the proper control strategy (of both engine and transmission), but it can lead to a lower overall efficiency than a very well designed torque converter/planetary automatic. Now, wet clutch DCT are another thing altogether - much better matching of static to dynamic conditions, and near infinite life (in industrial applications I have seen hundreds of millions of engagement cycles resulting in nothing but break in wear). But cost goes up...... Good post. But one question that's always puzzled me. Aren't conventional manual transmissions (stick shifts) dry-clutch? They seem to work just fine. Last a long time too. I've easily gotten 100,000+ miles of driving out of old Rangers that had manual transmissions before changing the clutch. As for the DCT in my '012 Focus, ever since the new shifting software was installed last summer, this thing has shifted like a conventional torque converter auto. Very smooth. You can only feel the clutch engaging while driving at about 1 mph (like in a parking lot). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Remember the CVT, How Ford Dumped it and now Honda and Nissan perfected it. DCT have been used in many high end application from BMW, Audi and VW. The advantages a dry DCT and efficiency, weight and cost. Ford could not reach 40mpg in the Focus without the dry DCT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibinubu12 Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I bought the Focus specifically for the PowerShift DCT. I would not have bought it had a conventional automatic been offered - it would have made the car significantly less fun. My DCT has been perfect, it shifts faster and more aggressively than a slushbox and having no load on the engine at idle does wonders for fuel economy. I love starting from a stop, how it is a perfect imitation of me shifting a manual box, except it never makes a mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Remember the CVT, How Ford Dumped it and now Honda and Nissan perfected it. DCT have been used in many high end application from BMW, Audi and VW. The advantages a dry DCT and efficiency, weight and cost. Ford could not reach 40mpg in the Focus without the dry DCT. How about fun to drive with no foot clutch to have to fool with? It's putting the manual out of business much like touch screens are putting switch gear out of business. Even take rates for PDK are over 70% on sports cars when it used to be reversed not very long ago. You don't have to worry about lifting accelerator foot with auto blip and coordinate clutch foot and still be able to extend each gear out as much as possible and get beautiful, clean shifts when you decide to engage paddle shifter or floor gear shift. And you barely have to touch it to choose gear up or down. Plus you get better fuel mileage and sportier driving with no fear of riding clutch or missing gear. Downside is extra cost/price/complexity/cost of repair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) People may prefer a DCT over a conventional manual, but they do not seem to prefer a DCT over a conventional automatic. Of course, the similarities between Porsche 911 buyers and Focus buyers are small enough that using one to measure the other is ridiculous. And Honda did not so much 'perfect' the CVT as make it unavoidable. Edited March 1, 2013 by RichardJensen 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 People may prefer a DCT over a conventional manual, but they do not seem to prefer a DCT over a conventional automatic. Of course, the similarities between Porsche 911 buyers and Focus buyers are small enough that using one to measure the other is ridiculous. And Honda did not so much 'perfect' the CVT as make it unavoidable. Ford could easily replace the little thumb switch on side of floor mounted gear shift with a BMW type floor shifter and add nifty looking paddle shifters also like on Taurus. And for those who are confused by it, you just shift to D and auto slush box takes over and negates the hand manual side if you prefer. Or just make it optional trans with conventional slush box optional and forget the manual which is going away like it or not. If this were offered on new Stang, I don't see many buying manual anymore, even on Mustang GT. My prediction would be sophisticated clutchless manual 80% and conventional manual 20% dropping off every year after. They are that good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 for those who are confused by it, you just shift to D They are not confused by it, they are irritated by it. They do not like it. That is why Ford is getting rid of it. If it were not significantly more expensive to manufacturer than a conventional manual, I could see them offering it instead of a conventional manual as a base transmission. But I doubt it would see enough volume as an extra cost option to justify its use in any entry level product. I do agree that Ford could go with a premium off-the-shelf wet clutch for an upscale Mustang, or other performance vehicle. But not the Focus/Fiesta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 They are not confused by it, they are irritated by it. They do not like it. That is why Ford is getting rid of it. If it were not significantly more expensive to manufacturer than a conventional manual, I could see them offering it instead of a conventional manual as a base transmission. But I doubt it would see enough volume as an extra cost option to justify its use in any entry level product. I do agree that Ford could go with a premium off-the-shelf wet clutch for an upscale Mustang, or other performance vehicle. But not the Focus/Fiesta. Prove that Ford is getting rid of Powershift on Focus. A "rumor" is not fact, last I heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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