C-MAX outsells Prius V in October.

[03 LS]

possibly but the C-max is just a Focus that someone has grabbed and blown hard in the tailpipe anyways..thus my comment....interestingly though, will they follow the same path with a plumped up Fiesta version?....theres your 50 plus miles, maybe a little eco 1.0 with a traction engine....?....wishful thinking?....that said, the fact the C-max starts at $25995 I applaud, dont know how much would be saved in a Fiesta variant...

 

I think there's another possibility: Ford couldn't offer a Focus Hybrid, let alone a Fiesta version, because Ford only has ONE HEV power pack, and it's not suitable for Focus/Fiesta size.

 

If you take away TC BEV (vendor design/build) and Focus BEV (vendor design), ALL Ford's (P)HEVs use the same power pack, plugins just have more batteries. Their weight are all ~3600+lbs. I think that's what this power pack was specifically designed for. With that in mind, the next logic choice to go hybrid, if battery capacity and demand are there, would be Lincoln Escape.

 

Focus/Fiesta sized vehicles (sub 3000lbs) should use a smaller, less powerful HEV pack that has smaller engine/motor and less battery to reduce weight/space/cost and produce much better FE (I'm hoping 60mpg). I bet Ford is working on it, but not ready for production yet.

[Deanh]

 

 

I think there's another possibility: Ford couldn't offer a Focus Hybrid, let alone a Fiesta version, because Ford only has ONE HEV power pack, and it's not suitable for Focus/Fiesta size.

 

If you take away TC BEV (vendor design/build) and Focus BEV (vendor design), ALL Ford's (P)HEVs use the same power pack, plugins just have more batteries. Their weight are all ~3600+lbs. I think that's what this power pack was specifically designed for. With that in mind, the next logic choice to go hybrid, if battery capacity and demand are there, would be Lincoln Escape.

 

Focus/Fiesta sized vehicles (sub 3000lbs) should use a smaller, less powerful HEV pack that has smaller engine/motor and less battery to reduce weight/space/cost and produce much better FE (I'm hoping 60mpg). I bet Ford is working on it, but not ready for production yet.

except fro the fact the C-max IS the Focus chassis and underpinnings as far as I know....sos the Escape.....

[RichardJensen]

Yeah, the hybrid powerpack fits anywhere that the conventional family of 4-cylinders fits. That was one of the key goals for the 2nd Gen ('09 Fusion) system.

[03 LS]

except fro the fact the C-max IS the Focus chassis and underpinnings as far as I know....sos the Escape.....

C-max and Escape are both bigger than Focus, and with the size increase comes the weight penalty. Focus is ~2900lbs, while C-max and Escape are 3500+lbs.

I'm not sure how much the non-hybrid C-max weighs, but the GCMAX was 3700lbs.

 

To RJ's point, yes the C-max/Fusion power pack should fit in Focus, but the battery needs space, too, and the added weight. If you want a smaller hybrid with far superior fuel effciency, you should give it a smaller lighter, and cheaper power pack.

[Deanh]

 

C-max and Escape are both bigger than Focus, and with the size increase comes the weight penalty. Focus is ~2900lbs, while C-max and Escape are 3500+lbs.

I'm not sure how much the non-hybrid C-max weighs, but the GCMAX was 3700lbs.

 

To RJ's point, yes the C-max/Fusion power pack should fit in Focus, but the battery needs space, too, and the added weight. If you want a smaller hybrid with far superior fuel effciency, you should give it a smaller lighter, and cheaper power pack.

pretty much the only discernable difference between the Focus and c-max is height thats it, thus my "blown in the tailpipe' comment, as for weight, dare I say a large % of that is due to the batteries alone... Edited November 5, 2012 by Deanh

[bzcat]

I personally think the loss of a hybrid 4x4 underlines the case for the Escape alone....

 

Did you sell many AWD Escape hybrid? I think I only saw 1 in the wild before. My guess is that it was not a very highly sought after configuration, plus it lowers the MPG than just the FWD version, which muddles the marketing message.

 

I suppose it won't be difficult for Ford to add an Escape hybrid (or a Focus hybrid for that matter) since they are all the same car, just with different suspension height. But it may come at the expense of a more focused marketing campaign to make C-Max a viable alternative to Prius (at least in the US/Canada).

 

And I think the Transit Connect hybrid you mentioned up thread has some real possibilities, especially for fleet buyers looking to reduce/limit their carbon footprint.

[Deanh]

 

 

Did you sell many AWD Escape hybrid? I think I only saw 1 in the wild before. My guess is that it was not a very highly sought after configuration, plus it lowers the MPG than just the FWD version, which muddles the marketing message.

 

I suppose it won't be difficult for Ford to add an Escape hybrid (or a Focus hybrid for that matter) since they are all the same car, just with different suspension height. But it may come at the expense of a more focused marketing campaign to make C-Max a viable alternative to Prius (at least in the US/Canada).

 

And I think the Transit Connect hybrid you mentioned up thread has some real possibilities, especially for fleet buyers looking to reduce/limit their carbon footprint.

we did pretty well with them, mind you I think at the time it was literally the ONLY hybrid available in AWD configuration....understand your comment on the C-max Marketing, but to compete with the prius lineup they will need to expand, maybe a B-max ( Fiesta based ) and D-max ( Fusion based ) I dont know....

[jpd80]

C-max and Escape are both bigger than Focus, and with the size increase comes the weight penalty. Focus is ~2900lbs, while C-max and Escape are 3500+lbs.

I'm not sure how much the non-hybrid C-max weighs, but the GCMAX was 3700lbs.

 

To RJ's point, yes the C-max/Fusion power pack should fit in Focus, but the battery needs space, too, and the added weight. If you want a smaller hybrid with far superior fuel effciency, you should give it a smaller lighter, and cheaper power pack.

Just a quick FYI, the Euro 1.6 Ecoboost manual C-max weighs 1385 Kg x 2.2 = 3047 lbs

[MKII]

The Grand C-Max 1.6 Ecoboost manual weighs 1496kg x 2.2 = 3,291 lbs

 

What if the C-Max blows away Fords sales expectations, do you think they might offer Hybrid version of the Grand C-Max?

That would give Toyota a kick in the nuts in the USA.

[Donaldo]

Did you sell many AWD Escape hybrid? I think I only saw 1 in the wild before. My guess is that it was not a very highly sought after configuration, plus it lowers the MPG than just the FWD version, which muddles the marketing message.

Even to this day 8 years after its introduction there are very few AWD vehicles that beat the Escape Hybrid 4WD's EPA city gas mpg (29-30). The Highlander/RX450h came close but they were more expensive, midsize, and have much more powerful V6s. The Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade hybrid 4WD only does about 20mpg.

I suspect the Escape hybrid 4WD configuration was more popular for government/fleet use than retail, although they were common in snowbelt areas.

[SoonerLS]

The hybrid market still remains one of the dedicated few... Highly green minded people who shun the same bigger is better traditional mindset, and where the hybrid badge means much more than the mpg saved.

I think this is borne out by the fact that Ford chose to puts its eggs in the C-Max basket instead of shoving it into "just another" Focus or Escape--it doesn't matter whether you can see the badge or not, the C-Max (like the Pious) is immediately recognizable as a hybrid because it is only sold as a hybrid.

[Kris Kolman]

There is something to that... Although I think the C-Max might have an inherent ceiling do to its larger size. This might be a cap to sales from the counter-culture types that have embraced the Prius and are driving the leading edge of the hybrid market. And with Ford already invested in the Focus all electric, and the C-Max being a cousin of the Focus, a Focus hatch )maybe with the some unique styling) would seem the next move. I think the hybrid market is still evolving quickly and I'm not very confident this is the right move, but worth a serious examination. And for those saying it only gets you another 10% more fuel efficiency or cost buy-back for the owner... I only need to point out that the hybrid die-hards think less in terms personal dollars and cents, but as being part of the whole green revolution. Think of a sentimental collector of somesort... making money is nice but buying the last item to finish a display is far more important.

[jpd80]

It could also be a sign that a broader base of buyers is prepared to consider a Hybrid that looks a little more mainstream but still has Prius like traits...

Ford may have pulled a masterstroke by drawing the Euro C-max as a dedicated US hybrid, gaining external scales of economy that make it all possible.

Edited November 7, 2012 by jpd80

[FordBuyer]

According to AN production numbers, Ford is building about 800 C Max's/week including Energi model. Looks to me like right now 1,000/week would be maximum output. So about 3,000-4,000/month is abouit top range for C Max sales for now anyway. Now maybe Ford can increase output going forward, but I don't know. The Energi gets its batteries from Panasonic, the best batteries out there and in high demand since Tesla uses them also. They are very lightweight and powerful.

[jpd80]

The response to C-max has been surprisingly good, its first full month, tripling the sales of Escape hybrid

so Ford will be scrambling to keep up with sales as well as building out inventory over the winter months.

 

I'd like to see Ford expand hybrid to Transit Connect for fleet buyers.and Focus to go after classic Prius sales.

Add those two vehicles to the roster and I'd say that Ford would be inundated with requests for hybrid vehicles...

[BORG]

I'm really excited to see what is happening with C-Max, Ford just made the first legitimate Prius fighter.

[RichardJensen]

And, really, who else was in the running to do that?

 

Ford has been the only car company that has gone all-in on the 'conventional hybrid' track.

[sullynd]

Well, if not for having a crappy hybrid system, you cold say that Honda tried with the G2 Insight.

[RichardJensen]

Yeah, but that's kind of my point.

 

The Insight came out first, but it wasn't a full series hybrid and Honda has kind of fiddled with the concept ever since. Ford, OTOH, is on their third generation hybrid system, and if the 2nd generation was as good as Toyota's (viz: Fusion vs. Camry FE), the 3rd looks to be appreciably better.

[jpd80]

Yeah, but that's kind of my point.

 

The Insight came out first, but it wasn't a full series hybrid and Honda has kind of fiddled with the concept ever since. Ford, OTOH, is on their third generation hybrid system, and if the 2nd generation was as good as Toyota's (viz: Fusion vs. Camry FE), the 3rd looks to be appreciably better.

For sure, Ford has gone in boots and all this time around and for that they deserve full marks,

can't wait to see whether Ford expands to Transit Connect as well...

[SoonerLS]

I'd like to see Ford expand hybrid to ... Focus to go after classic Prius sales.

Dunno--I'd say that's exactly what they've done with CMax. Adding it to Focus would help go after the other Pious variants, but, IMHO, the CMax goes directly after the original Pious.

[jpd80]

Dunno--I'd say that's exactly what they've done with CMax. Adding it to Focus would help go after the other Pious variants, but, IMHO, the CMax goes directly after the original Pious.

Yeah, I can understand what you're saying but they don't neatly align for us, C-Max is more like between Classic Prius and Prius V

but Focus would be between Classic Prius and Prius C Ford has looked at this from every angle and seen that the sweet spot is C-Max,

while a hybrid Focus is probably at best, considered non-essential or at worst, a distraction attention away from C-Max...

 

C-Max has been on the market for such a short time and already people like me are seeing the wider potential,

maybe that's one of the aims of C-Max and Fusion, to broaden people's horizons and break stereotypes.

Edited November 11, 2012 by jpd80

[Kris Kolman]

Don't let the styling fool ya... Interior space-wise the C-Max is much more aligned with the Prius-v, not the classic Prius. Classic Prius in terms of interior space is more aligned with a standard 5-door compact.

 

I think it is short-sighted to claim that Ford should only have a single compact hybrid model... Some future projections seem to indicate hybrids will become not a special model per sa, but a more expensive powertrain option. That eventually most vehicles eventually will have a hybrid powertrain option, like most have a high performance/sport option. If so then the Focus hybrid wouldn't be a distraction (still not sure how you get distraction), but a way to amortize the fairly high hybrid system overhead over a wider array of models. This is important because everyone seems to be saying that greater hybrid system sales is a fundamental to decreasing costs. Let not forget Ford already has a alternatively powered Focus in the $39k Focus Electric. Adding a $24k Focus hybrid to compliment the full electric and $25k C-Max would both increase market penetration and increase hybrid system sales.

[SoonerLS]

Don't let the styling fool ya... Interior space-wise the C-Max is much more aligned with the Prius-v, not the classic Prius. Classic Prius in terms of interior space is more aligned with a standard 5-door compact.

I don't think the interior space is the issue as much as the "look at my automotive hair shirt" styling is. That's where I think Ford has gone after the Pious, not in a size-for-size matchup.

I think it is short-sighted to claim that Ford should only have a single compact hybrid model... Some future projections seem to indicate hybrids will become not a special model per sa, but a more expensive powertrain option. That eventually most vehicles eventually will have a hybrid powertrain option, like most have a high performance/sport option.

I think that's Ford's ultimate intention as they ramp up their hybrid powerpack capacity; in the meantime, they're just going for the biggest bang for the smallest incremental buck.

[FordBuyer]

I don't think the interior space is the issue as much as the "look at my automotive hair shirt" styling is. That's where I think Ford has gone after the Pious, not in a size-for-size matchup.

 

I think that's Ford's ultimate intention as they ramp up their hybrid powerpack capacity; in the meantime, they're just going for the biggest bang for the smallest incremental buck.

 

I believe Ypsi Rawsonville plant assembles the Panasonic batteries into a unit that is used on the C Max Energi model. I don't how many they can make as I believe the are hand packed. Ford's hybrid and plug-ins are still production constrained and don't expect any sales explosion to Toyota Prius hybrid sales levels anytime soon. But Ford's attempts so far look very promising. Veryimpressive with MAP making Focus, Focus EV, Focus ST, and the C-Max models. Focus brand turning into quite a juggernaut with Corolla and Civic not coming close to offering range of models Focus is now shipping. In fact, it looks like Toyota will be ending Matrix production soon. I wouldn't be surprised to see Focus range of models outselling competitor C cars in near term. Pocket rocket, sedan, hatch, EV, and tall hybrid station wagon. I love how Ford expanded the Focus portfolio.