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C-MAX outsells Prius V in October.


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Just saw the C-Max for the first time today. Didn't get a chance to test drive it, but it does seem more mainstream than the Prius V. I think sales will continue to climb (provided they can build them fast enough) and maybe settle around 5000, which would be pretty damn good compared to an established brand like the Prius.

 

Agreed though that a hybrid Focus could also be an interesting product. I'd be all over that.

It's unfortunate that Ford chose BEVs for Focus and Transit Connect, it feels like a great opportunity was missed to push home an advantage,

Imagine both of those vehicles with the new hybrid power train, the Focus would be a zippy hybrid and the Transit Connect hybrid attractive to fleets.

But still, Ford can't do everything at the one time and there's still advantage for more roll outs in the future...the potential is huge.

Edited by jpd80
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Just saw the C-Max for the first time today. Didn't get a chance to test drive it, but it does seem more mainstream than the Prius V. I think sales will continue to climb (provided they can build them fast enough) and maybe settle around 5000, which would be pretty damn good compared to an established brand like the Prius.

 

Agreed though that a hybrid Focus could also be an interesting product. I'd be all over that.

I sat in a C-Max for the first time yesterday and was very impressed. The front seating area is very much like my 2013 Escape, lots of room and well layed out, with plenty of rear passenger space. I think the interor and cargo area is what sets it apart from the Prius, if hybrid technology is the primary factor. Once the hybrid buyer gets a closer look at it, I think they will move away from the Prius and go for the larger overall package. I don't think you will ever see a hybrid Focus. The car already can get up to 40+ mpg's and it's too small of a package to attract a buyer with a family or cargo needs. The Transit Connect is a good candidate for a hybrid technology, inner city delivery or taxi's would benefit most. That and staying with the mid size sedans, that's where you will see continued hybrid development, not in the compacts.

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I sat in a C-Max for the first time yesterday and was very impressed. The front seating area is very much like my 2013 Escape, lots of room and well layed out, with plenty of rear passenger space. I think the interor and cargo area is what sets it apart from the Prius, if hybrid technology is the primary factor. Once the hybrid buyer gets a closer look at it, I think they will move away from the Prius and go for the larger overall package. I don't think you will ever see a hybrid Focus. The car already can get up to 40+ mpg's and it's too small of a package to attract a buyer with a family or cargo needs. The Transit Connect is a good candidate for a hybrid technology, inner city delivery or taxi's would benefit most. That and staying with the mid size sedans, that's where you will see continued hybrid development, not in the compacts.

 

As long as hybrid components are in short supply, I would suspect Ford will be judicious on what hybrid models it offers. Obviously Escape and Focus are very high volume sellers, and Ford can only make so many hybrids. Not sure what the number is now with new Ford hybrid component plants starting up, but doubt if it's more than 50,000/year right now. I believe Ford wants to be 8 times higher in next few years though as new CAFE regs kick in. So who knows how many models will offer hybrid version by 2016 or so. More than now for sure. I know that a few years ago Ford talked about hybrid Edge.

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I've let this Focus hybrid comment doesn't have enough ROI and is too small for far too long without comment. You need to be honest when we evaluate the market... The hybrid market still remains one of the dedicated few... Highly green minded people who shun the same bigger is better traditional mindset, and where the hybrid badge means much more than the mpg saved. These are people attracted to living in downtown lofts and disgusted by us in the sprawling suburbs. Who are enthusiastic supporters of lawsuits that prevent items like ski area expansion. Ford has the Fusion hybrid for the traditional buyer, but many of the "downtown green hipster" types are going to shun it as too big. I was recently in downtown Seattle for a weekend with a bunch of people in their 30's who live downtown. And they almost as a whole own small compact cars (from Subaru WRXs toBMW 3-series to VW Golfs - see a pattern) and Focus hybrid would appeal to them. Only one couple I met with lived up in the northern suburbs and even they owned a small sedan (no first parent SUV here). Evaluate the hybrid market independent of the "rose colored glasses" that is Detroit and the Great Lakes area... But instead evaluate the primary hybrid market (urban coastal areas) on their own merits.

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Edmunds Insideline had some interesting numbers in their story

 

http://www.insidelin...in-october.html

 

3,182 C-Max sales compared to 2,769 Prius-v sales, but the "classic" Prius far outsells the -v. As such total Prius sales were 11,008... Which indicates that while the C-Max is an excellent replacement for the Escape hybrid the bulk of hybrid sales are in compact cars. As such I would think Ford wants to continue hybrid market penetration a Focus 5-door hybrid (regular and plug-in) to go along with the full electric model.

 

 

Yes, the Prius "Classic" far outsells the C-Max....and it probably will for at least one generation. But the C-Max has only been on sale for two months, if that. The Prius name has been established for almost 13 years. While I would welcome a Focus Hybrid sedan or hatch ( as well as other hybrids ) I don't think the market can support that many hybrid models at the moment. However, I am a member of an age group of buyers that will be far more "hybrid-prone" than current car buyers and is getting close to buying new cars in large numbers ( late 20's-30s). Once my generation starts to buy cars in significant numbers my guess is that sales of B-cars, C-cars, hatchbacks, and Hybrid models will increase significanty.

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I've let this Focus hybrid comment doesn't have enough ROI and is too small for far too long without comment. You need to be honest when we evaluate the market... The hybrid market still remains one of the dedicated few... Highly green minded people who shun the same bigger is better traditional mindset, and where the hybrid badge means much more than the mpg saved. These are people attracted to living in downtown lofts and disgusted by us in the sprawling suburbs. Who are enthusiastic supporters of lawsuits that prevent items like ski area expansion. Ford has the Fusion hybrid for the traditional buyer, but many of the "downtown green hipster" types are going to shun it as too big. I was recently in downtown Seattle for a weekend with a bunch of people in their 30's who live downtown. And they almost as a whole own small compact cars (from Subaru WRXs toBMW 3-series to VW Golfs - see a pattern) and Focus hybrid would appeal to them. Only one couple I met with lived up in the northern suburbs and even they owned a small sedan (no first parent SUV here). Evaluate the hybrid market independent of the "rose colored glasses" that is Detroit and the Great Lakes area... But instead evaluate the primary hybrid market (urban coastal areas) on their own merits.

That may be true now, but Ford has to consider the entire market before they invest billons in designing and developing new models and drive trains. As hybrid technology is introduced across more models and if the price of gasoline stabilizes around $3.50-$4.00 a gallon, more and more people will consider hybrid and electric technology. When electric battery technology gets to the 200-300 mile range and the infrastructure to support it is in place, electric will be more common. For now, hybrid and plug in is a great alternative. Power isn't the primary consideration for most buyers any more, cost to drive, interior space, and comfort are. If someone can drive from the burbs at freeway speeds and not use any fuel, in a vehicle that's roomy and comfortable, you'll see more and more hybrids on the road.

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As long as hybrid components are in short supply, I would suspect Ford will be judicious on what hybrid models it offers. Obviously Escape and Focus are very high volume sellers, and Ford can only make so many hybrids. Not sure what the number is now with new Ford hybrid component plants starting up, but doubt if it's more than 50,000/year right now. I believe Ford wants to be 8 times higher in next few years though as new CAFE regs kick in. So who knows how many models will offer hybrid version by 2016 or so. More than now for sure. I know that a few years ago Ford talked about hybrid Edge.

Actually, Ford's hybrid components supplies are much less constrained, Ford building its own gearboxes and electrics com from different suppliers to Toyota.

Any perceived constraint is more to do with how many projects Ford is able to do in the very short time frame and I get the feeling that the stronger than expected

response to C-max has taken them by surprise - in a good way. maybe this is a great opportunity to justify increased production through winter months and

press home the hybrid advantage. Disappointed that Ford chose BEV for Focus and Transit Connect, imagine the scenario of Ford with even hybrids hybrids.

 

I think a lot of people are seeing the potential with Ford's hybrid tech, that's a great thing too as that realization grows with buyers, you can bet that

Ford is already way out in front with planning new vehicle types that buyers are only thinking about now. It's all very exciting times.....

Edited by jpd80
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The conversion by Azure Dynamics? My local Ford dealer near Indianapolis (Pearson Ford in Zionsville, Indiana) is reported to be an authorized sales and service center for AZD Transit Connect Electric, but I don't know if they have actually sold or serviced any.

yup, thats the one, and now I think its even worse, i beleive Azure went BK.......
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Why no Focus hybrid?

 

My guess: It's not exactly ROI, but it's close

 

First, why did Ford make the Escape a hybrid instead of the Focus? Markup. B/E for the hybrid Escape was lower than the hybrid Focus because the conventionally powered Escape has a higher gross margin than the conventionally powered Focus.

 

Ditto the C-Max & Focus. A conventionally powered C-Max would probably retail for a couple thousand more than a comparable Focus, and would probably not have anywhere near that amount in additional costs (fixed & amortized), therefore higher gross margin, therefore more 'space' to absorb the costs of a hybrid powertrain above the retail markup.

 

I don't think we'll see a hybrid Focus until Ford is making hybrid powertrains in much higher volumes than they are at present (note that Toyota does not offer a hybrid Corolla).

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Why no Focus hybrid?

 

My guess: It's not exactly ROI, but it's close

 

First, why did Ford make the Escape a hybrid instead of the Focus? Markup. B/E for the hybrid Escape was lower than the hybrid Focus because the conventionally powered Escape has a higher gross margin than the conventionally powered Focus.

 

Ditto the C-Max & Focus. A conventionally powered C-Max would probably retail for a couple thousand more than a comparable Focus, and would probably not have anywhere near that amount in additional costs (fixed & amortized), therefore higher gross margin, therefore more 'space' to absorb the costs of a hybrid powertrain above the retail markup.

I don't think we'll see a hybrid Focus until Ford is making hybrid powertrains in much higher volumes than they are at present (note that Toyota does not offer a hybrid Corolla).

well, from my standpoint the C-max makes a Focus hybrid redundant....

 

 

Edited by Deanh
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well, from my standpoint the C-max makes a Focus hybrid redundant....

 

That's what I keep saying. Aren't they built on the same platform? It would be a nice vehicle but I don't think it would garner the incremental sales to warrant the investment right now.

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I dunno. Pretty sure a Focus hybrid could hit 50MPG highway (only a ~7% improvement, which aerodynamics and weight should be able to achieve), which would be a real selling point.

 

But in practical terms, I think the C-Max is the smarter play, as it's a far more sustainable proposition than an 'everything has to break just right' Focus hybrid.

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I dunno. Pretty sure a Focus hybrid could hit 50MPG highway (only a ~7% improvement, which aerodynamics and weight should be able to achieve), which would be a real selling point.

 

But in practical terms, I think the C-Max is the smarter play, as it's a far more sustainable proposition than an 'everything has to break just right' Focus hybrid.

possibly but the C-max is just a Focus that someone has grabbed and blown hard in the tailpipe anyways..thus my comment....interestingly though, will they follow the same path with a plumped up Fiesta version?....theres your 50 plus miles, maybe a little eco 1.0 with a traction engine....?....wishful thinking?....that said, the fact the C-max starts at $25995 I applaud, dont know how much would be saved in a Fiesta variant...
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If the cost of a hybrid powertrain drops below the retail markup, you'll see it everywhere. We're not at that point, though.

getting there though, having the drivetrain in several models helps, will we see it n more than the C-max and Fusion?....
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If a C Max Hybrid makes a Focus Hybrid redundant, wouldn't A Pruis V make the Prius liftback redundant?

 

If things takeoff with Ford's hybrids, I would think almost any model is not off the mark.

size, C-max has more utility than the Focus....
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If a C Max Hybrid makes a Focus Hybrid redundant, wouldn't A Pruis V make the Prius liftback redundant?

 

If things takeoff with Ford's hybrids, I would think almost any model is not off the mark.

I really want to see a TC variant, utility galore and the Commercial ranificatins are fantastic...ESPECIALLY if they could keep them close to the C-maxs MSRP's....
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I would think almost any model is not off the mark.

See note above about breakeven and cost of the hybrid system over and above the retail price.

 

Further, the trend (at present) seems to be increased capability, vs. lower cost. In that, as the cost of they hybrid components come down, manufacturers seem to be adding more capacity to the battery pack in lieu of reducing the installed cost of the system (in order to spur wider adoption).

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Why no Focus hybrid?

 

My guess: It's not exactly ROI, but it's close

 

First, why did Ford make the Escape a hybrid instead of the Focus? Markup. B/E for the hybrid Escape was lower than the hybrid Focus because the conventionally powered Escape has a higher gross margin than the conventionally powered Focus.

 

Ditto the C-Max & Focus. A conventionally powered C-Max would probably retail for a couple thousand more than a comparable Focus, and would probably not have anywhere near that amount in additional costs (fixed & amortized), therefore higher gross margin, therefore more 'space' to absorb the costs of a hybrid powertrain above the retail markup.

 

I don't think we'll see a hybrid Focus until Ford is making hybrid powertrains in much higher volumes than they are at present (note that Toyota does not offer a hybrid Corolla).

 

Agree with you on the hypothesis that Ford chosed Escape instead of Focus (or Contour for that matter) because the higher inherent margin built into SUVs.

 

Also agree with Focus hybrid will not come to fruition until Ford's hybrid volume is much higher. Perhaps the next generation Focus will feature hybrid drivetrain from the start of development.

 

Lastly, I just want to point out that Toyota does offer a hybrid Auris, which is essentially a Corolla hatchback in Europe and Australia (where it is called a Corolla). But to your larger point... Toyota is resisting offering a plan jane Corolla hybrid in the US percisely because Prius affords them a much higher profit margin than it is likely from a Corolla hybrid. The presence of Prius negates the need for a Corolla hybrid. Elsewhere, the Prius brand is not as well defined or liked, Toyota does offer a Corolla (Auris) hybrid. Just as it does a Yaris hybrid (rebadged here a Prius C).

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Agree with you on the hypothesis that Ford chosed Escape instead of Focus (or Contour for that matter) because the higher inherent margin built into SUVs.

 

Don't forget we're talking about the previous Focus, not the current Focus, which makes it an even more compelling reason to go with the Escape.

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Why no Focus hybrid?

 

My guess: It's not exactly ROI, but it's close

 

First, why did Ford make the Escape a hybrid instead of the Focus? Markup. B/E for the hybrid Escape was lower than the hybrid Focus because the conventionally powered Escape has a higher gross margin than the conventionally powered Focus.

 

Ditto the C-Max & Focus. A conventionally powered C-Max would probably retail for a couple thousand more than a comparable Focus, and would probably not have anywhere near that amount in additional costs (fixed & amortized), therefore higher gross margin, therefore more 'space' to absorb the costs of a hybrid powertrain above the retail markup.

 

I don't think we'll see a hybrid Focus until Ford is making hybrid powertrains in much higher volumes than they are at present (note that Toyota does not offer a hybrid Corolla).

It's interesting isn't it, Ford chooses to initiate this generation of hybrids in Fusion and C-Max, two vehicle sizes that complement each other.

After years of Toyota showing the world Hybrids need to look different to mainstream vehicles, it is the job of those vehicles to prove they don't.

 

I have a feeling that Ford will eventually go after classic Prius with a slightly reworked Focus hatch but only after costs are driven a bit lower

it's all part of a growing understanding of Ford's differing views on profitable sales versus maximizing production volumes, the pay off fo Ford

in that instance will be for technology to replace European diesels and those tightening emissions - the timing of that change is key as it affects

a lot of Ford Europe power train infrastructure, assets that are integral in the bulk of Ford Europe's present income stream.

Edited by jpd80
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