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Ecoboost and Oil Changes


Escapism

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A costly stupid repair.

 

Mine was done under warranty but VW made me prove that I changed the oil as per their specs.

 

Water and oil cooled mean little to a turbo spinning at 200k RPMs and being heated to well over a thousand degrees. Synthetic oil with changes more frequently that a normally aspirated motor is cheap insurance. For most users that probably equals one additional oil change. Driving conditions will determine wear and tear. Frequent startup and shut downs take their toll on turbos and will require more frequent changes.

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Water and oil cooled mean little to a turbo spinning at 200k RPMs and being heated to well over a thousand degrees. Synthetic oil with changes more frequently that a normally aspirated motor is cheap insurance. For most users that probably equals one additional oil change.

 

Seriously?!?! Do you even have a clue? Synthetic oil alone isn't going to take care of the heat problem alone...there are direct cooling lines to the Turbo on the Ecoboost engine to help keep the turbo ball bearings/shaft cooler. There isn't enough surface area in a turbo for oil to make a difference when it comes to temperature regulation.

 

The primary role of oil is to provide lucubration in an engine, not cooling....

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Has anybody changed their oil in the 1.6L yet. I got underneath the car and had no problem removing the shield. However i had a bit of a head scratching moment when looking at the oil filter. For some reason the filter itself is lodged above some AC lines and hosing. Once the filter is removed, the oil will drip all over these items, etc. I'm in awe that the engineers allowed this design. This is literally the worse layout that I have ever seen for the oil filter.

 

If anybody has any hints/suggestions for taking this filter out....I'm all ears.

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Seriously?!?!

 

As the past owner of six turbocharged vehicles, you seem a bit confused. Intercooling does nothing to cool the turbo. It simply cools the intake of air. As far as water cooling, using extended oil change intervals is going to cook the turbo, Nor is water cooling going to solve the heat soak issue. Take a look at a turbo that's operating on a fuller up to temp engine and you'll see them glowing.

 

Taking the oil change intervals much past 5k is going to take it's toll on the turbo just as will turning off the engine without a cool down period. Check out what a turbo replacement costs and a oil change or two is going to be cheap insurance.

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Well, now I'm confused...I see no previous mention of intercooling by anyone in this particular thread.

 

And while the primary purpose of motor oil is indeed lubrication of moving parts, it also plays a role in cooling various engine parts...sometimes a significant role.

 

Extended oil change intervals in a turbocharged engine is gambling in my opinion. Powerball gambling, or blackjack gambling...I'm guessing somewhere in between, but probably closer to blackjack.

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...I see no previous mention of intercooling

 

The only air cooling on a turbo is intercooling.

 

Thus the need for more frequent changes vs a normally aspirated motor.

Yes, oil is used to lubricate the bearings but they still run at a unusually high temperature thus cooking the oil. Water cooling helps but does not eliminate the issues.

 

Extended oil change intervals in a turbocharged engine is gambling in my opinion.

 

Absolutely. Owning a Econboost motor will involve changes inn the maintenance routine. But many will treat it like a normally aspirated motor and have no idea that a turbo is even part of the system. Current improvements have helped but not eliminated the issues with the unit.

 

A good source of info on turbo failures can be found here.

http://www.workturbochargers.com/knowledge-base/turbo-failure-101.html

Edited by rscalzo
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Hi guys! I'm reading elsewhere that the EcoBoost turbos are cooled by WATER, not oil, and it was a requirement that the engins, in total, require nothing different than the naturally-aspirated gasoline engines. They specifically did not want to have to deal with oil "coking" (not cooking, coking).

 

Rscalzo's reference is to a tubo failure page that states the number one failure reason is dirt in the oil that lubes/cools the turbo. In normal turbos that's true, hence the reason to change engine oil every 3,500 miles. But where the turbos bearings system is sealed, changing the engine oil to protect the turbo is a futile and expensive expense.

 

I'm still reading...and looking for a definitive engineering write-up. :reading:

 

Water-cooled turbos: http://gcg.com.au/in...stuff&Itemid=99

 

 

 

See more after this:

 

I stole borrowed this:

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Al Kohalic viewpost.gif

I figured after about a couple years that the misinformation about the Ecoboost would die down as people gain knowledge. It has for the most part in the forums, but I realized when talking to customer today on how many myths are still out there in the real world. His Dodge friends fed him so much ignorant BS. Luckily I was there to set him straight. Here are some of the myths that he was told and a few that I am still hearing from others.

 

 

Myth 1: You have to use premium fuel at all times in the Ecoboost.

 

False! The newest F-150 owners manual states.

3.5L V6 EcoBoost engine

“Regular” unleaded gasoline with a pump (R+M)/2 octane rating of 87 is

recommended. Some stations offer fuels posted as “Regular” with an

octane rating below 87, particularly in high altitude areas. Fuels with

octane levels below 87 are not recommended. Premium fuel will provide

improved performance and is recommended for severe duty usage such

as trailer tow.

 

Myth 2: The Ecoboost has to work harder in the higher rpms to do the same job as a V8 which will make the engine fail sooner.

 

This could not be further from the truth. Actually it is the exact opposite. Due to it's forced induction, the EB has huge amounts of torque at and below 2,500rpms compared to other N/A V8s. The Tundra I-Force 5.7L V8 has around 350ft-lb of torque at 2,500rpm while the EB has 420ft-lb at the same rpm and keeps it's torque above the Tundra's the rest of the way through the power band. That is around a 70ft-lb difference right where you need it the most, and the difference is even greater with some of the other competitor's V8s. It is torque that gets your truck up and moving, and with that much torque down low, you do not need much rpm to do the same job as the N/A V8s would. It is the exact same concept as a diesel.

 

Myth 3: It takes a while before the turbos get into the boost, and you are a regular 3.5L until then.

 

With the turbo's being so small, it does not take much at all for them to spool up. Besides the brief moment for the truck to downshift under heavy throttle like all other trucks do, the power is always their compared to N/A engines that have to get into the higher rpms to get their power. It will take you way more time and throttle to get a N/A V8 to it's power "sweet spot" then for the EB's turbos to spool up and give you the same amount of power to the point that it is instant in comparison.

 

Myth 4: You have to let the truck idle for 30 seconds before turning it off or you will "coke" your turbo's.

 

While this was true of turbo's of the past, it is not true for the EB. The EB uses liquid/oil cooled turbos that do no require a turbo timer or idle for 30 seconds to get the turbo's cooled down. If you want more information on this subject the try this Garrett website on liquid cooled turbos.

 

 

I know there are probably many more myths out there and if any of you EB owners have run across some the post up. Hopefully Google might lead someone here to debunk some of the myths out there so they can make an informed buying decision. I would hate to see someone have to buy a Dodge, or even worse a Chevy because of misinformation. Nothing new here guy. All of this info has been all over the internet on multiple forums since the eco first came out in the F-150 in January or Feb 2011

user_offline.gif

 

And there's this:

 

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=29657

Edited by PajamaGuy
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The turbocharger used in the Fusion and Focus is different than the one in the Escape and other EcoBoost - They have an "OverBoost" capability that requires some cobalt added to theirs to withstand the 1992 degrees (F) that the Focus ST and the Fusion's turbos can reach (non-OverBoosted turbos only reach 1778 degrees (F).

 

"Fusion owners can highlight the fact that the BorgWarner K03 turbocharger features both water and oil cooling; when the engine is running, it is primarily oil-cooled, but after the engine is turned off, the water cooling system creates a thermal water siphon to help draw heat away from the turbocharger."

 

I'm still looking for the description of the non-OverBoosted EcoBoost turbos....

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Hi guys! I'm reading elsewhere that the EcoBoost turbos are cooled by WATER, not oil, and it was a requirement that the engins, in total, require nothing different than the naturally-aspirated gasoline engines. They specifically did not want to have to deal with oil "coking" (not cooking, coking).

 

Thats exactly the point I was making, but obviously some people have a reading comprehension problems...

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cooled by WATER,

 

And VW thought regular oil would keep their turbos intact. The water siphon idea has been around for some time. Ford also is pushing MyTouch as a great feature...if they could only get it to work. Feel free to treat it like a normally aspirated engine. then five or six year down the road when the turbo craps out, no doubt Ford will be there to cover the fifteen hundred to two thousand dollar part that will require replacement. Maybe you should read Garrett's white paper on the subject. Water cooling is far from new going back to the days of the 944 Porsche. Garrett states it will increase turbo life. They also state that the cooling system maintenance becomes critical as a loss of cooling will damage the turbo. But it does assist with cool down upon engine shutoff.

 

 

All of this info has been all over the internet on multiple forums since the eco first came out in the F-150 in January or Feb 2011

 

 

So the engine has been on the road for a little over a year? Let's see what happens five or six years down the road. Until them, increased oil changes will still be cheap insurance. Because I doubt Ford will be providing free turbo replacements in the case of a 12 thousand mile interval.

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So the engine has been on the road for a little over a year? Let's see what happens five or six years down the road. Until them, increased oil changes will still be cheap insurance. Because I doubt Ford will be providing free turbo replacements in the case of a 12 thousand mile interval.

 

How many turbo failures have you heard about on the 3.5 Ecoboost? The engine has been out 4 years now, and I've personally not heard of a failure. Same goes with the Powerstroke. It's not like Ford is new to the turbo game. Even if you negate that Navistar did the turbos on the previous engine, Ford did the work on the newest diesel. You'll need to update your turbo failure ideas as that is 80's turbo thinking. The 3.5 Eco held up well in the SHO, and now 2 years in the F150.

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The engine hasn't been in service long enough with the numbers to show if there will be issues. With the Ford Interceptor starting to see the light of day the reliability will be truly documented. The Navistar issues were legendary and Ford did not step up in many cases and deal with it regardless of who made the motor. But that's a different animal. As far as this motor, the issue is oil changes and nothing more. Take them out to 10k if that's what you want. But by the time issues show up, the warranty will probably be gone.

 

So I'll spend a few dollars more per year and use a good synthetic oil changed every 5K. But that won't be a factor until I decide to actually buy one. As it stands, I'm far from impressed with the issues that came to light before the car even left the factory.

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But where the turbos bearings system is sealed, changing the engine oil to protect the turbo is a futile and expensive expense.

 

 

The way this is worded, I am comprehending that engine oil does NOT circulate through the turbo bearings. Seriously?

 

Regardless, there is no way I am leaving oil in this engine for up to 10,000 miles (to be determined by the factory installed gnome with an abacus). That goes against every automotive moral fiber in my body.

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Oil lubricates the bearings. The water coolings biggest advantage is to reduce the heat soak upon shutdown.

 

10K??? I don't even leave it in my two current Escapes that long. Even the Harley gets changes every three thou with Amsoil. I have to laugh when some argue against what for most will be one additional $40 oil change on a 36K vehicle. No doubt these will be the same people who five or six years down the road will complain about breakdowns. The system seems to be a vast improvement over older types IF the owner maintains the other systems that provide the protection.

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After extensive searching/reading yesterday, I haven't found anything else to suggest that oil isn't circulated through the turbo's bearings. I should have edited that. I was a little cranky (my due-at-dealer date moved to thright by 5 days :censored: )

 

As the guy in the mirror gets more along in years, my tolerance for folks stating facts that aren't factual has decreased.

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I'm still looking for the description of the non-OverBoosted EcoBoost turbos....

 

 

"Overboost" is quite simply the standard boost pressure permitted by the wastegate to be overridden. Years back it was a popular way to increase engine output at the expense of engine reliability and longevity is not done along with several other modifications.

 

Ford's Overboost capability is simply allowing the boost to rise above normal settings for short periods. Somewhat like Comast's Internet Blast feature...I'd expect non-Overboost motors do not have this feature.

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Well, almost... the boost doesn't go up higher than "standard", the computer just doesn't decrease it as much - as soon. Although the "even higher" statement in the caption seems to argue their own statements!

 

"At the press of a button, Overboost expands peak torque for up to 15 seconds at a time to give ST drivers easier passing. The gains in the torque are from 3000 RPMs to 4500 RPMs."

 

st-over-495x500.jpg

Edited by PajamaGuy
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Well, that's a great research project, :work: thanks PillBoy - I think you're wrong! :boxing: I think they mean that the computer keeps the wastegate's setting at maximum boost for an additional 15 seconds before reducing pressure, keeping the max torque range expanded- but then, we live in America - we're allowed to have different opinions without worry of being executed! :yahoo:

 

And since I have 5 extra days before delivery... :tease:

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Well, that's a great research project, :work: thanks PillBoy - I think you're wrong! :boxing: I think they mean that the computer keeps the wastegate's setting at maximum boost for an additional 15 seconds before reducing pressure, keeping the max torque range expanded- but then, we live in America - we're allowed to have different opinions without worry of being executed! :yahoo:

 

And since I have 5 extra days before delivery... :tease:

 

It would have to be the wet clutch version to take that much torque and from all reports it's a lot smoother than the dry clutch version currently in the Focus and Fiesta.

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So guess the 3.5L EB in the F-150 isn't good enough either?

 

You consider an engine that's been on the street for two years a long term test? how is that going to determine the longevity of a seven or eight year old vehicle? How long did it take Ford to realize that their spark plugs were welding themselves into the head of their head? Or should owners take the hit is the time comes to trade or sell their eight year old Escape only to find no one wants them due to reliability issues. Ford could alway warranty the turbo and associated system for 100k if they want to insure they have faith in it.

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