Focus Electric Test Drive

[silvrsvt]

http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/17/2953479/2012-ford-focus-electric-driving-impressions

[blksn8k2]

I see Ford has also announced that the Focus Electric will be the pace car for the Richmond 400 Nascar race. Sure hope they keep it charged between caution flags. I assume it will be using juice at a higher rate than under normal driving conditions. It would be embarrasing to have it die in front of 80,000 rednecks.

 

http://www.blueovalnews.com/Ford_Motor_Company_News/ford-makes-nasca-history-as-all-new-focus-electric-becomes-first-all-electric-pace-car-for-the-richmond-400.html

[rkisler]

Focus EV Comments

http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/17/2953479/2012-ford-focus-electric-driving-impressions

 

Thanks for posting. A couple of comments.

 

1. Magna announced yesterday the opening of their plant in Grand Blanc Township, MI to supply electric motors, inverters, and powertrain control modules for the Ford Focus BEV.

 

http://www.magnaecar.com/media/press-releases-news/news-page/2012/04/16/news-release---magna-e-car-systems-debuts-new-manufacturing-facility

 

2. The comments within the "purist" and rather prissy BEV community are generally not very positive -- but none have driven it nor read any reviews. First, they don't like that Ford let Magna do the whole project (I don't know what the split of responsibility is, but I don't think customers are going to care). They view it as a conversion in part because of the package of the upper batter which swallows up a good portion of the trunk. And they don't like the price which is more expensive than the Leaf. But how much comments like these will affect actual sales is TBD.

 

3. For the price Ford is charging, this car needs to be a step above the Leaf. I'm not liking some of the comments on road noise, but this is just one review. Looking forward to a head-to-head. Hopefully, the Focus will have superior dynamics because the Leaf uses none-too-great Versa running gear. But whether customers will care is another matter. They don't seem to care that the Prius is a puffed up Corolla with a twist beam rear axle -- it's just not important to them.

 

4. Ford hasn't announced projected volumes, but of course they have to have some base, otherwise you don't know how to facilitize the component supply. Here are some comments on volume from Mullaly:

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-17/ford-s-mulally-prepared-for-gradual-growth-in-battery-car-demand.html?cmpid=yhoo

[NickF1011]

Detroit News has another article pointing out that the Focus Electric has ZERO sales for the past two months. Don't these idiots realize it's not for retail sale yet?

[akirby]

The price difference between a comparably equipped Leaf and Focus Electric is only about $2k. Not a huge difference on a $40K vehicle.

[97svtgoin05gt]

I haven't looked into it but I'm still not sure why we aren't pursuing Hydrogen as an alternative fuel. These electrics are nice and all but for what you get vrs what it costs, it just doesn't seem worth it.

[rkisler]

The price difference between a comparably equipped Leaf and Focus Electric is only about $2k. Not a huge difference on a $40K vehicle.

 

Although I haven't done the analysis, I understand (I actually started to do it yesterday on Excel, but then I caught myself and said "Why are you doing this??") The problem is that most people don't do comparably-equipped prices. So the visual price difference is around $4k.

 

Look at how many articles have said that Ford's new products are "expensive." I saw another one the other day on the new Escape saying the same thing, but I've never seen any magazine or newspaper article doing the pencil work to sort out how much is due to equpment, and how much is pure pricing.

 

We'll see. But with the BEV economics as they now are, you are really pushing even early adopters when you're above $35k. Or Ford is going to have to do a subvened lease program to match Leaf and Volt?

[akirby]

I haven't looked into it but I'm still not sure why we aren't pursuing Hydrogen as an alternative fuel. These electrics are nice and all but for what you get vrs what it costs, it just doesn't seem worth it.

 

Because we can't create, distribute or store hydrogen safely and efficiently.

[rkisler]

Detroit News has another article pointing out that the Focus Electric has ZERO sales for the past two months. Don't these idiots realize it's not for retail sale yet?

 

True. But Ford did cause some confusion by having their Job 1 last year, but evidently did not really intend to start producing any sort of volume until now. Refer back to my comments on the Magna plant just now opening to supply components to support production. Nevertheless, most of the press has no idea what they are seeing or how to analyze data. This is still a very immature market with lots of fits and starts.

 

Here are a couple of interesting videos on production of the FFE at MAP and you can see how it's being flexed into the main line:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRQuEcOesZA

 

[akirby]

Although I haven't done the analysis, I understand (I actually started to do it yesterday on Excel, but then I caught myself and said "Why are you doing this??") The problem is that most people don't do comparably-equipped prices. So the visual price difference is around $4k.

 

Look at how many articles have said that Ford's new products are "expensive." I saw another one the other day on the new Escape saying the same thing, but I've never seen any magazine or newspaper article doing the pencil work to sort out how much is due to equpment, and how much is pure pricing.

 

We'll see. But with the BEV economics as they now are, you are really pushing even early adopters when you're above $35k. Or Ford is going to have to do a subvened lease program to match Leaf and Volt?

 

It all depends on how you look at these vehicles. If you think the goal is to drive early adoption and to sell as many as possible then you can make a case for mfrs to lower the price even if they're losing money.

 

OTOH if you're looking at it like any other FoMoCo vehicle then it cost whatever it costs and if the public wants them they'll buy it and if the public doesn't want it then they won't sell and if enough people don't buy it then they'll discontinue it.

 

Seriously - how does subsidizing electric vehicle sales help FoMoCo?

[silvrsvt]

It all depends on how you look at these vehicles. If you think the goal is to drive early adoption and to sell as many as possible then you can make a case for mfrs to lower the price even if they're losing money.

 

OTOH if you're looking at it like any other FoMoCo vehicle then it cost whatever it costs and if the public wants them they'll buy it and if the public doesn't want it then they won't sell and if enough people don't buy it then they'll discontinue it.

 

Seriously - how does subsidizing electric vehicle sales help FoMoCo?

 

 

Going on Mullay's comments about the car, they only expect to sell 5K cars a year...and it seems to be an active lab project since electric cars are going to be a big part of the future....

[Deanh]

Going on Mullay's comments about the car, they only expect to sell 5K cars a year...and it seems to be an active lab project since electric cars are going to be a big part of the future....

pure test bed disguised as PR...............or vice versa

[aneekr]

Seriously - how does subsidizing electric vehicle sales help FoMoCo?

Along the lines of what was mentioned in the Bloomberg article that Austin linked in Post #3, Ford has a corporate goal termed 'Our Plan: Blueprint for Sustainability', which includes a provision to "triple production capacity of its electrified vehicle line-up by 2013". This is referenced on p. 24 of Ford's 2011 Annual Report. Subsidizing such vehicles in some form may help Ford with utilization of that increased production capacity. The extent to which this is done remains to be seen, of course.

Edited April 17, 2012 by aneekr

[transitman]

Watching the video I was wondering why there was a muffler system on an electric car. Then in the last segment, the coordinator says they are building both gas and electric on the same line.

 

 

[rkisler]

Watching the video I was wondering why there was a muffler system on an electric car. Then in the last segment, the coordinator says they are building both gas and electric on the same line.

 

Yep. The upper battery is a separate operation, but the motor, associated hardware, and lower battery are all installed in a similar manner to the IC engine Focus. Nissan does the same thing in Japan with the Leaf, although the plant in the U.S. is going to start out Leaf only.

 

If you took the video in a couple of months, you would see the C-Max Hybrid and C-Max Energi mixed in on the same line. I suppose the guys/gals that install the upper battery on the Focus Electric will be the same ones installing the upper battery on the PHEV. But here's a lesson on what's called "trapped labor." What do these folks do when they don't have a FFE or C-Max Energi coming down the line? Something...but it probably doesn't have the work content of the battery loading and installation

[akirby]

Along the lines of what was mentioned in the Bloomberg article that Austin linked in Post #3, Ford has a corporate goal termed 'Our Plan: Blueprint for Sustainability', which includes a provision to "triple production capacity of its electrified vehicle line-up by 2013". This is referenced on p. 24 of Ford's 2011 Annual Report. Subsidizing such vehicles in some form may help Ford with utilization of that increased production capacity. The extent to which this is done remains to be seen, of course.

 

I can see that.

[rkisler]

pure test bed disguised as PR...............or vice versa

 

Dean, I think it's more than just PR, but it most certainly is a test bed and represents a good way for Ford to get vehicles in the field and gather lots of useful data.

 

It has a lot to do with you and your fellow citizens in California who I think have been smoking too much of the good stuff. CARB is in the process of issuing yet another zero emissions mandate. And as goes California, so goes a bunch of other states that follow their lead. Some members of CARB have been quoted that they don't particularly care if manufacturers have to subsidize electric vehicles to make the required volume, because their other choice is to reduce their overall volume of conventional vehicle sales in California. Lose, lose.

 

So Ford is compelled to get there, and quickly on electric car development. If Nissan can establish themselves as the "Prius of EV's", and Ford is viewed as an overpriced outsider, then there could be trouble regaining traction. We'll see. But these cars are going to be vitally important in the future.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Austin

[Biker16]

 

Seriously - how does subsidizing electric vehicle sales help FoMoCo?

 

It is about the long term investment in the technology. Sometime ROI is not measured in months or years but in decades.

[akirby]

It is about the long term investment in the technology. Sometime ROI is not measured in months or years but in decades.

 

You get the R&D experience whether you sell 100 or 10,000. Unless you're going for PR or you need the sales to help plant capacity it doesn't make sense to subsidize the price.

[rkisler]

You get the R&D experience whether you sell 100 or 10,000. Unless you're going for PR or you need the sales to help plant capacity it doesn't make sense to subsidize the price.

 

I don't quite agree that Ford can get the same R&D experience regardless of volume. BEV's are in their infancy. Manufacturers will be thirsting for data on how customers use their cars, and how the car is performing to customer useage. Very difficult, and it goes across a huge spectrum of geography, climate (regional and seasonal), useage patterns, charging times/frequency, and a host of other factors. I see GM in a great position to gather data, as all of their Volt data can be captured as part of OnStar. I don't think Ford has the same capability as part of MFT. Sure, engineers have done durability testing, but we won't know a lot until these vehicles are in service for an extended period. For instance, Ford and GM have taken a path of liquid cooled batteries. Is it really beneficial to battery longevity and charge? Is it beneficial to customers in terms of climate control and range, and do they notice it? Or should Ford go to air cooled (like the Leaf), and significanty reduce package size, cost, and weight amd try to get rid of that huge lump in the trunk?

 

Also, see my comments above. Manufacturers will be subsidizing electric vehicles whether they like it or not if they hope to sell in California and other states that adopt ZEV mandates, so Ford needs to quickly determine Gen II direction and sort out how to rapidly get the costs down to reduce exposure.

 

Early adopters of BEV technology are enthusiastic and also are likely to influence future purchasers IMO. Of course Ford can't afford unlimited losses on a product, but I think it makes sense to get FFE out there in respectable volumes. I'm thinking around 20k upa in the U.S. For reference, Nissan is capacitizing the Leaf for 150k upa in Tennessee; they also are making the components, including batteries, and are going to try to rapidly push down the cost and own the market. Whether they succeed or get holding a bag of fixed costs is TBD. But they represent a huge challenge, and Ford is playing defense right now on BEV's.

[akirby]

I don't quite agree that Ford can get the same R&D experience regardless of volume. BEV's are in their infancy. Manufacturers will be thirsting for data on how customers use their cars, and how the car is performing to customer useage. Very difficult, and it goes across a huge spectrum of geography, climate (regional and seasonal), useage patterns, charging times/frequency, and a host of other factors. I see GM in a great position to gather data, as all of their Volt data can be captured as part of OnStar. I don't think Ford has the same capability as part of MFT. Sure, engineers have done durability testing, but we won't know a lot until these vehicles are in service for an extended period. For instance, Ford and GM have taken a path of liquid cooled batteries. Is it really beneficial to battery longevity and charge? Is it beneficial to customers in terms of climate control and range, and do they notice it? Or should Ford go to air cooled (like the Leaf), and significanty reduce package size, cost, and weight amd try to get rid of that huge lump in the trunk?

 

Also, see my comments above. Manufacturers will be subsidizing electric vehicles whether they like it or not if they hope to sell in California and other states that adopt ZEV mandates, so Ford needs to quickly determine Gen II direction and sort out how to rapidly get the costs down to reduce exposure.

 

Early adopters of BEV technology are enthusiastic and also are likely to influence future purchasers IMO. Of course Ford can't afford unlimited losses on a product, but I think it makes sense to get FFE out there in respectable volumes. I'm thinking around 20k upa in the U.S. For reference, Nissan is capacitizing the Leaf for 150k upa in Tennessee; they also are making the components, including batteries, and are going to try to rapidly push down the cost and own the market. Whether they succeed or get holding a bag of fixed costs is TBD. But they represent a huge challenge, and Ford is playing defense right now on BEV's.

 

I guess the question is how much is Ford willing to subsidize to get the volume they want. That probably also depends on what happens with the competition. I still don't see them dropping the price significantly just to increase sales which is something the greenies seem to want.

[rkisler]

I guess the question is how much is Ford willing to subsidize to get the volume they want. That probably also depends on what happens with the competition. I still don't see them dropping the price significantly just to increase sales which is something the greenies seem to want.

 

I agree. The greenies are, however, expecting a price drop on the Leaf when production begins in the U.S. at volume and the costs become dollar based versus yen based. We'll see.

 

Some of these EV enthusiasts are absolutely rabid.

[akirby]

I agree. The greenies are, however, expecting a price drop on the Leaf when production begins in the U.S. at volume and the costs become dollar based versus yen based. We'll see.

 

Some of these EV enthusiasts are absolutely rabid.

 

Including one here who thinks an EV should only cost $10K and that Ford is ripping them off.

[Biker16]

the key for price reductions on EV is getting that mega battery plant up to full production.

 

in addition to the Chinese hoarding rae earth metals, drivng up the cost of everything from motors, to batteries and even solar panels, which are not made in China.

 

effectively making US production more expensive and less competitive.

 

EV Battery Report Says Costs Going Down

 

current cost of $800-1000 per KWh on the focus's 23kwh battery pack would cost between $18,000 and $23,000.

 

If KWh cost dropped to $380 in the next 3 years the cost of that pattery pack would be only $8740 for the current batter pack, or you could double the range (many Issues) for the same cost of the current car.

 

either way establshing rare earth mineral production in the USA, and increasing domestic battery pack production are the key to reducing costs.

 

in 3 years the cost of the Focus EV could decrease up to 10,000 dollars.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Biker16

[NickF1011]

either way establshing rare earth mineral production in the USA, and increasing domestic battery pack production are the key to reducing costs.

 

Many rare earth metals simply are not available in the USA. They are called rare for a reason.