Rid Lincoln of FWD...

[fou_bleu]

Considering that Lincoln is hard at work on making new models as far removed from their Ford siblings cousins as financially viable, do you think that dropping the FWD models and only offering AWD cars would be a considerably cheap and effortless way to help speed up this process? I'd be interesting (whether or not it's in favour of my argument) if someone knows where detailed sales numbers are - ie: FWD or AWD models...

 

Don't get me wrong, though, I'd love the next MKS to be RWD! :P

Edited April 7, 2012 by Aussie_Ford

[fou_bleu]

Don't just vote, discuss!

[2b2]

pretty much agree but

counter proposal (minus Navigator)

posted "elsewhere" last Monday

 

mostly inspired by the Auto Start-Stop announcement for the 1.6EB Fusion,

imho

it might be good if the ONLY Fwd versions were something along the lines of an S.F.E. trim

S. = auto Start-Stop

F. = Fwd

E. = minor electrics something on the order of GM's eAssist

 

these would all be low-complexity, low-cost, HIGH-MPG configurations;

a way to make what may otherwise be a "base model" into something special

and

perhaps make it seem that Awd is more or less 'standard' for Lincolns F-Awd-based vehicles...

...the customer could (theoretically) be seen as choosing the SFE for its mileage, not just low-price.

(I'd LOVE to have exposed aero-shutters on these too! ...maybe just a sheer mesh in front of them?)

 

thinking the engines might be

the 2.7v6 for the MKuGa, Z & maybe X

3.7v6 for the S & T (still would like to replace BOTH with a lwb sedan)

Edited April 8, 2012 by 2b2

[fou_bleu]

What a great idea 2b2! That makes so much sense that Ford/Lincoln would never do it!

 

In the meantime, I think removing the 'in-betweener' FWD models would give a spin on the media's perception of Lincoln (some are that tick) and they might report something fairly positive for once rather than a slag-off fest as in recent years...

[2b2]

TY, Aussie_Ford

 

maybe they will

think a LOT depends on the Nano 2.7v6 (& its 8speed tranny) as part of the whole "base" model issue - I prefer Lincoln to Not really have any

(equally imho there shouldn't be an 'Ultimate' trim...Bespoke is much better = personal choice. All Lincolns must have some Ultimate in them.)

&

I'm still not sure what drivetrains will come in the C-segment vehicle(s)

((I have grave reservations about a 4cyl being used in any Lincoln other than for the smallest hybrids & rather hope if they do a 'range extender' on a plug-in, that they use the 1.0 3cyl - - not even crazy about a 4cyl EB for Lincoln))

Edited April 8, 2012 by 2b2

[DC Car Examiner]

All-wheel-drive takes a bite out of fuel efficiency and raises prices, and there are parts of the country where there isn't much need for it. I'm all for letting people choose their own options.

[timmm55]

 

it might be good if the ONLY Fwd versions were something along the lines of an S.F.E. trim

S. = auto Start-Stop

F. = Fwd

E. = minor electrics something on the order of GM's eAssist

 

these would all be low-complexity, low-cost, HIGH-MPG configurations;

a way to make what may otherwise be a "base model" into something special

 

 

 

Sure about that? List is Malibu 4 cyl, Focus SFE, Fusion Hybrid, Malibu e Assist.

Regular Gasoline 26

Combined

22 City

 

33 Highway

 

Regular Gasoline 33

Combined

28 City

 

40 Highway

 

Regular Gasoline 39

Combined

41 City

 

36 Highway

 

Regular Gasoline 29

Combined

25 City

 

37 Highway

 

 

 

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=31374&id=31185&id=31388&id=32208

 

The Focus SFE is already getting better MPGs (city and Highway) than Malibu eAssist. Fusion Hybrid beats ANY Malibu by a long shot! Ford sure as hell doesn't need to emulate GM in this arena. A regular FWD Fusion (23/33 comb 26) or Malibu (22/33) vs Malibu eAssist (25/37 comb 29) is not worth the $4000 surcharge.

 

 

What Edmunds Says

The redesigned 2013 Chevy Malibu is a top choice for a family sedan, but we'd probably wait for the standard 2.5-liter models to arrive instead of snapping up the Eco model that will debut first.

 

http://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=101388838|&veh2=101386785|sedan&veh3=101386859|hybrid&veh4=101323920|sedan&show=0|1|2|3|4|5

 

 

 

 

 

 

[2b2]

^ Tim, I didn't mean it that literally (plus will freely admit I had no idea GM charged THAT much for eAssist ) tho THANKS for all the numbers!

 

just meant some kind of minor electric assist that could boost MPG a bit above what the 'ordinary' engine could do ... just to make it 'special'

(like the Focus SFE is a package above the base model)

tho guess there are other, less expensive means they could employ - tho I'd prefer a bit more than "just tuning"

 

 

ps

Mark Phelan of DetNews got better than expected/rated mpg while driving the Malibu Eco to & from the Chicago Autoshow

...The Malibu Eco I had topped the highway figure by a whopping 7.4 m.p.g. for 44.4 m.p.g. in real-world driving. I set the cruise control to 70 m.p.h. for a total of 234 miles in two separate stints on my way to Chicago and back earlier this month...

[StevenCaylor]

AWD only? That would be a deal breaker. AWD is more expensive, slower and gets worse MPG than FWD. You figure the last time it snowed all over Los Angeles was January, 1949. The only FWD car I've ever owned was a 1983 Escort GT with the 1.6 EFI engine (88 hp!), 5-speed manual and the TRX wheel/tire combo. I loved that little car. Obviously, I would love to see Lincoln with a RWD flagship.

[2b2]

^well, Steven, I also rant for a couple Rwd platforms

Mustang co-platformed sportsedan and coupecabrio (3 AND 6-series)

& GRwdP Continental (5er & 7er alternative) also Aviator/Navigator pair

Edited April 9, 2012 by 2b2

[fou_bleu]

While the standard 3.7 V6 AWD MKS might not fare well against the Germans, factor in the 3.5EB V6 and we actually have a bargain compromise between performance and efficiency, IMO:

 

Lincoln MKS EcoBoost AWD:

365hp - 17/25 mpg - $49,800

 

Mercedes-Benz E550 4MATIC:

402hp - 16/24 mpg - $59,790

 

BMW 550i xDrive:

400hp - 15/20 mpg - $64,300

 

Cadillac CTS Performance AWD:

318hp - 18/27 mpg - $45,085

 

Acura RL SH-AWD:

300hp - 17/24 mpg - $48,200

[NickF1011]

While the standard 3.7 V6 AWD MKS might not fare well against the Germans, factor in the 3.5EB V6 and we actually have a bargain compromise between performance and efficiency, IMO:

 

Lincoln MKS EcoBoost AWD:

365hp - 17/25 mpg - $49,800

 

Mercedes-Benz E550 4MATIC:

402hp - 16/24 mpg - $59,790

 

BMW 550i xDrive:

400hp - 15/20 mpg - $64,300

 

Cadillac CTS Performance AWD:

318hp - 18/27 mpg - $45,085

 

Acura RL SH-AWD:

300hp - 17/24 mpg - $48,200

 

Wow. That BMW sure is an inefficient pig, isn't it?

[fou_bleu]

Wow. That BMW sure is an inefficient pig, isn't it?

 

Not sure if sarcastic, but either way I wouldn't go so far as calling it a pig...

[NickF1011]

Not sure if sarcastic, but either way I wouldn't go so far as calling it a pig...

 

20 mpg highway?? That's worse than the '13 GT500 which offers up 250 more ponies.

[fou_bleu]

Ah, I see! :D And it appears that the government website that I obtained the data off conflicts with BMW's website, which claims 24 mpg highway...

[NickF1011]

Ah, I see! :D And it appears that the government website that I obtained the data off conflicts with BMW's website, which claims 24 mpg highway...

 

24 sounds more reasonable. Wouldn't be the first time the government got something wrong.

[goinbroke2]

There is no option of "RWD" which is what I would of picked. Personally I think all this "tiny 4cyl lincoln" is rediculous. Is Lincoln to be a rebadged ford (ala mercury?) or a premium car line?

Figure out what you want and go from there. Mercury died because different grills on a ford were not worth the extra $$, kinda dumb to push lincoln off the same cliff don't ya think?

 

If lincoln is to be a premium car line, then do it. The rich guy who plunks down $65,000 for a premium car doesn't give a rats ass about 25mpg or 22mpg or even 28mpg. He wants the "richness" of the car, the luxury. If he wants a performance premium car like a loaded bmw then he will buy something like that, you won't entice him with a "eco friendly 4cyl".

 

Lincoln luxury car: Build it with utmost luxury and style. Focus on the needs of the rich person who wants to show off that they have "made it".

 

Lincoln performance car: Build it with power and all around performance in a elegant package. Focus on the rich person who wants to show off that they are rich and enjoy the better things in life.

 

Lincoln economy car: ummm....NOT! Unless you want a tiny car for the rich wife who wants to be "in the clique". Problem is, Lincoln doesn't HAVE the "clique" so they wouldn't sell for that reason. Anyone who has a mansion and a Lincoln in the driveway is not going to want a "mini lincoln" where the visitors would see it.

 

Might be a bit over the top with the eco car, but my basic premise is sound. Anybody who can afford a "lincoln" won't want a tiny car with a lincoln badge on it. Conversly, lincoln building a tiny ford with a lincoln badge would detract from the nameplate and keep it from ever being more than "another mercury".

[NickF1011]

There is no option of "RWD" which is what I would of picked. Personally I think all this "tiny 4cyl lincoln" is rediculous. Is Lincoln to be a rebadged ford (ala mercury?) or a premium car line?

Figure out what you want and go from there. Mercury died because different grills on a ford were not worth the extra $$, kinda dumb to push lincoln off the same cliff don't ya think?

 

If lincoln is to be a premium car line, then do it. The rich guy who plunks down $65,000 for a premium car doesn't give a rats ass about 25mpg or 22mpg or even 28mpg. He wants the "richness" of the car, the luxury. If he wants a performance premium car like a loaded bmw then he will buy something like that, you won't entice him with a "eco friendly 4cyl".

 

Lincoln luxury car: Build it with utmost luxury and style. Focus on the needs of the rich person who wants to show off that they have "made it".

 

Lincoln performance car: Build it with power and all around performance in a elegant package. Focus on the rich person who wants to show off that they are rich and enjoy the better things in life.

 

Lincoln economy car: ummm....NOT! Unless you want a tiny car for the rich wife who wants to be "in the clique". Problem is, Lincoln doesn't HAVE the "clique" so they wouldn't sell for that reason. Anyone who has a mansion and a Lincoln in the driveway is not going to want a "mini lincoln" where the visitors would see it.

 

Might be a bit over the top with the eco car, but my basic premise is sound. Anybody who can afford a "lincoln" won't want a tiny car with a lincoln badge on it. Conversly, lincoln building a tiny ford with a lincoln badge would detract from the nameplate and keep it from ever being more than "another mercury".

 

So explain BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc all offering cars in this segment already?

[aneekr]

So explain BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc all offering cars in this segment already?

 

In reference to the "small family car" and "supermini" segments, the offerings of BMW (F20 1-series), Mercedes-Benz (W176 A-Class, W246 B-Class), and Audi (A1, 3rd gen A3) are designed for global markets outside North America. I don't think any of these products are destined for the U.S. market, though I will certainly be gratified if they are in the future!

Edited April 30, 2012 by aneekr

[NickF1011]

In reference to the "small family car" and "supermini" segments, the offerings of BMW (F20 1-series), Mercedes-Benz (W176 A-Class, W246 B-Class), and Audi (A1, 3rd gen A3) are designed for global markets outside North America. I don't think any of these products are destined for the U.S. market, though I will certainly be gratified if they are in the future!

 

Lincoln has no plans for any "supermini" type vehicle anytime soon, so I don't see where that's really relevant. BMW, Mercedes, and Audi do, however, all currently market vehicles here that are squarely in the same size segment as the Focus and rumored "small" Lincoln. We're only talking C-segment here. Not B or A.

 

Small != Economy. Europe learned it long ago. About time America does too.

Edited April 30, 2012 by NickF1011

[aneekr]

Don't just vote, discuss!

 

Any chance of adding a fourth option, 'RWD only' to your poll?

 

I'm in agreement with goinbroke2 regarding rear-wheel drive as possibility for future Lincoln vehicles and with DC Car Examiner about the poor cost-benefit ratio and decreased fuel efficiency associated with all-wheel drive.

Edited April 30, 2012 by aneekr

[2b2]

 

Any chance of adding a fourth option, 'RWD only' to your poll?

just in case

I'd want a

Both Rwd & F-Awd choice

:D

[goinbroke2]

Nick, I think you can minimize luxury but you can't upscale cheap.

In other words, you take a rolls royce and make it a small "rolls" and you might pull it off as it's already established as a luxury car. Taking a small car (a, b or even c) and adding gadgets and leather and saying it is luxury won't fly. The initial impression is what sells the remainder. For lincoln to do this it must first establish itself as a luxury brand. Right now it is not "luxury" enough for potential buyers to differentiate between a $17,000 focus and a $40,000 focus with lincoln badges.

 

 

Lincoln should be big, extravagant, instantly recognisable as a Lincoln and people will buy into it. THEN and ONLY then, come out with smaller and smaller Lincolns once the line has been established as a luxury car line.

 

Who would buy a Tata for $40,000 whether it was all leather/birds eye maple, throughout/power everything? NOBODY! But if Tata builds a luxury line that has no resemblance or recognition to tata, then after it's established trim it down and build it along side the tata, they might pull it off.

 

They have to think long term as this transformation won't happen with the release of 2 or 3 new cars. Bring out a "continental" or some other grand sounding name and wow the people. Then release a performance version or whatever but all focus must be placed on showing the upscale that is lincoln. THEN and only then move onto variants of the luxury car. (performance, eco, etc)

[NickF1011]

Nick, I think you can minimize luxury but you can't upscale cheap.

In other words, you take a rolls royce and make it a small "rolls" and you might pull it off as it's already established as a luxury car. Taking a small car (a, b or even c) and adding gadgets and leather and saying it is luxury won't fly. The initial impression is what sells the remainder. For lincoln to do this it must first establish itself as a luxury brand. Right now it is not "luxury" enough for potential buyers to differentiate between a $17,000 focus and a $40,000 focus with lincoln badges.

 

 

Lincoln should be big, extravagant, instantly recognisable as a Lincoln and people will buy into it. THEN and ONLY then, come out with smaller and smaller Lincolns once the line has been established as a luxury car line.

 

Who would buy a Tata for $40,000 whether it was all leather/birds eye maple, throughout/power everything? NOBODY! But if Tata builds a luxury line that has no resemblance or recognition to tata, then after it's established trim it down and build it along side the tata, they might pull it off.

 

They have to think long term as this transformation won't happen with the release of 2 or 3 new cars. Bring out a "continental" or some other grand sounding name and wow the people. Then release a performance version or whatever but all focus must be placed on showing the upscale that is lincoln. THEN and only then move onto variants of the luxury car. (performance, eco, etc)

 

I think you're missing the point on what Lincoln is trying to do now. Is the 2013 MKZ just a Fusion with more gadgets and leather? No. It's fundamentally a different vehicle inside and out. There's zero reason to think that a smaller Lincoln based on an existing Ford architecture would be any different going forward.

 

Big != luxury. And not every luxury buyer wants a barge. If they did, the best selling luxury cars on the market would not also be some of the smallest.

 

And your Tata example is ridiculous. Ford is not Tata. A more apt comparison would be to ask if people would buy $40,000 Hyundais? I think we already know the answer to that one. Yes. Yes they will. And I would certainly say the Lincoln name still carries more cachet than Hyundai does.

Edited May 1, 2012 by NickF1011

[TBirdStangSkyliner]

Not having RWD as a poll option sort of makes the whole thing as slanted as those political push-poles. AWD cars just don't make that much sense for a great proportion of drivers in the USA. Many live in warm climates or are married with one of the two primary vehicles being a SUV, crossover or 4wd Pick-up. Even in Montana, my wife and I don't need an AWD car. I could easily get to work with a FWD car for all but a day or two every few years. We take the Michelin shod SUV, with traction control and 4wd, when we go on a highway trip in the winter. Buying an AWD car when we will likely always have an SUV or SuperCrew would needlessly cost money at the dealership and the gas pump.