Fusion/MKZ at Flat Rock

[ds91776]

We've known for a while about the Fusion/possibly MKZ coming to Flat Rock as well as Hermisillo. Ever sine these rumors have surfaced we've been speculating about if Ford would split production of certain trims/model/powertrain combos between both production sites. Now that the Fusion Hybrid and Energi have been unveiled...I'd bet that at the Fusion and MKZ Hybrid and Engergi models will be produced at Flat Rock. I say this because Flat Rock isn't far from the plant that makes the Focus and its Electric variant and will eventually make the C-Max Hybrid and Energi. I think it would be more efficient for Ford and its suppliers to have both Hybrid/Energi plants in the same geographic region.

[Moosetang]

In the official discussion I've seen so far they still jut refer to it as "additional capacity." That said, putting the hybrids there would make a lot of sense. As would an SHO/ST model at Flat Rock, since that will likely have plenty of margin to cover the additional expense.

[bzcat]

I think the way Ford's flexible production system works, they can build the hybrid and energi variants intermixed with regular gasoline versions so the short answer is we'll probably see both plants produce all versions.

[RichardJensen]

Also HMO is currently assembling the hybrid variants of the Fusion and MKZ.

 

My curiosity is piqued as to the timing of the retrofit. Will AAI go down first? Or are so many changes to AAI required that it can't be brought online until well after Job 1?

 

Austin might have a bit of insight to this....

 

AFAIK, AAI is a two line plant with a single body shop (line = line where final assembly takes place; very labor intensive. Body shop is, IIRC, more mechanized, but still runs in assembly line fashion.)

 

Again, AFAIK, the body shop will have size limitations, but other than that will be fairly flexible as to what is assembled in it (size limitations in part dictated by the awesome device that is the e-coat tank (as well as other less obviously awesome things like the paint booth):

 

 

As most of this work is automated, I believe adjusting to a new vehicle is primarily a question of reprogramming the equipment.

 

However, the process of assembling the vehicle may change significantly, and so there may be a fair amount of time spent reconfiguring the final assembly process.

 

At HMO, the stamped pieces are made on site; at AAI, I believe they'll be shipped in from a nearby stamping plant. Again, AFAIK, the stamped pieces are assembled in the body shop, and those pieces that have to be hung (doors, hood, trunk) are attached at the proper stages during final assembly.

 

Most of this info can be corrected/expanded on by Austin, and should add to the discussion about HMO & AAI....

Edited January 9, 2012 by RichardJensen

[silvrsvt]

I think the way Ford's flexible production system works, they can build the hybrid and energi variants intermixed with regular gasoline versions so the short answer is we'll probably see both plants produce all versions.

 

I don't know about that, I'd envision Ford keeping the higher content models at Flat Rock (including the MKZ) to keep profitability up...but if there is a demand for cheaper models, I can see Flat Rock doing them also.

 

 

 

 

[atomcat68]

I'm starting to think that if the prices are low enough, adding Flat Rock might not even be enough to keep up with the extra demand. This Fusion really changes the game.

[silvrsvt]

 

 

Again, AFAIK, the body shop will have size limitations, but other than that will be fairly flexible as to what is assembled in it (size limitations in part dictated by the awesome device that is the e-coat tank (as well as other less obviously awesome things like the paint booth):

 

 

The difference between the Mustang and the new Fusion in overall length is 4 inches...they are just about identical in width.

 

The Mazda 6 is actually 2 inches longer then the new Fusion!

 

 

 

 

[ibinubu12]

We've known for a while about the Fusion/possibly MKZ coming to Flat Rock as well as Hermisillo. Ever sine these rumors have surfaced we've been speculating about if Ford would split production of certain trims/model/powertrain combos between both production sites. Now that the Fusion Hybrid and Energi have been unveiled...I'd bet that at the Fusion and MKZ Hybrid and Engergi models will be produced at Flat Rock. I say this because Flat Rock isn't far from the plant that makes the Focus and its Electric variant and will eventually make the C-Max Hybrid and Energi. I think it would be more efficient for Ford and its suppliers to have both Hybrid/Energi plants in the same geographic region.

 

ALL currently announced models of the 2013 Fusion will be produced at HSAP. It is uncertain at this point which models will have added capacity at AAI once the plant is retooled. What is clear is that HSAP will launch the Fusion this summer, and AAI will not be ready until this time next year (2013) at a minimum. What surprises me the most is the engine assembly locations. The 1.6 EB is being imported from Bridgend, Wales, and the 2.0 EB from Valencia, Spain. I wouldn't be surprised if all the EB models are in tight supply. We know CHEP can produce the NA 2.5 in high quantities, but Bridgend has to supply Focus and C-Max assembly in Saarlouis and Valencia, respectively with 1.6 EB engines, so I'd imagine they're going to be quite busy.

[Biker16]

Also HMO is currently assembling the hybrid variants of the Fusion and MKZ.

 

My curiosity is piqued as to the timing of the retrofit. Will AAI go down first? Or are so many changes to AAI required that it can't be brought online until well after Job 1?

 

Austin might have a bit of insight to this....

 

AFAIK, AAI is a two line plant with a single body shop (line = line where final assembly takes place; very labor intensive. Body shop is, IIRC, more mechanized, but still runs in assembly line fashion.)

 

Again, AFAIK, the body shop will have size limitations, but other than that will be fairly flexible as to what is assembled in it (size limitations in part dictated by the awesome device that is the e-coat tank (as well as other less obviously awesome things like the paint booth):

 

 

As most of this work is automated, I believe adjusting to a new vehicle is primarily a question of reprogramming the equipment.

 

However, the process of assembling the vehicle may change significantly, and so there may be a fair amount of time spent reconfiguring the final assembly process.

 

At HMO, the stamped pieces are made on site; at AAI, I believe they'll be shipped in from a nearby stamping plant. Again, AFAIK, the stamped pieces are assembled in the body shop, and those pieces that have to be hung (doors, hood, trunk) are attached at the proper stages during final assembly.

 

Most of this info can be corrected/expanded on by Austin, and should add to the discussion about HMO & AAI....

 

you are correct.

 

there are 4 prt in an assmeplby plant

 

in order

 

Body

Paint

chassis

Trim

 

Body shop: takes the stampings and makes the body and panels, usually 100% automated, very dangerous for workers to be.

 

usually directly connected to the paint shop.

 

Paint Shop: paints all body panels for vehicles made at the plant. highly automated, but in some cases can have manually painted parts. bodies are painted in batches. to minimize color changes.

 

Usually there is a automated cacheing system to hold batch produced bodies until they are queued to be assembled.

 

Chasis: for BOF vehicles this is where the body is attached to the Frame, but for unibody Designes this i swhere the Front and rear subfrmames along with engines, transmission are installed along with AWD systems, the prodedure is highly automated with mahcines doing the instalation of the subframes on the vehcle, but workers are needed to line up the cmahinry and make connections between the subframes and the bady.

 

Trim:is the most labor intensive it is also known as final assembly, it finishes the assembly of the vehicle.

 

AAI has 2 body shop lines, Mazda and Ford. the Ford body shop is built to Ford's Flex standards.

so I would not expect major upgrades to build the fusion, I could see Mazda shipping the entire Body shop to their plant in Mexico.

 

the paint shop is shared between mazda and Ford.

 

I am not sure about chassis, but either way you have a RWD and FWD/AWD chassis with very different procedures for assembly, It makes sense to duplicate. equipment not to share equipment between platforms.

 

the Trim line was shared between mazda and ford.

 

I'd expect most of the work to be done at AAI would be to bring the plant into to ford's production system.

 

The 500 million will likely go towards Tooling for both the Fusion and mustang, replacing the chassis and parts of trim to build the new fusion and new mustang, in comparison ford spent 700 million at LAP for a new body shop and major upgrades to trim and Chassis.

[Pioneer]

Can't remember where I read it, but Ford's spokeswoman was quoted as saying the Energi and Hybrid units will only be built in Mexico, and AAI will have a brand-new body shop built for Fusion production after the Mazda6 production is done.

[Pioneer]

Also HMO is currently assembling the hybrid variants of the Fusion and MKZ.

 

My curiosity is piqued as to the timing of the retrofit. Will AAI go down first? Or are so many changes to AAI required that it can't be brought online until well after Job 1?

 

Austin might have a bit of insight to this....

 

AFAIK, AAI is a two line plant with a single body shop (line = line where final assembly takes place; very labor intensive. Body shop is, IIRC, more mechanized, but still runs in assembly line fashion.)

 

Again, AFAIK, the body shop will have size limitations, but other than that will be fairly flexible as to what is assembled in it (size limitations in part dictated by the awesome device that is the e-coat tank (as well as other less obviously awesome things like the paint booth):

 

 

 

As most of this work is automated, I believe adjusting to a new vehicle is primarily a question of reprogramming the equipment.

 

However, the process of assembling the vehicle may change significantly, and so there may be a fair amount of time spent reconfiguring the final assembly process.

 

At HMO, the stamped pieces are made on site; at AAI, I believe they'll be shipped in from a nearby stamping plant. Again, AFAIK, the stamped pieces are assembled in the body shop, and those pieces that have to be hung (doors, hood, trunk) are attached at the proper stages during final assembly.

 

Most of this info can be corrected/expanded on by Austin, and should add to the discussion about HMO & AAI....

 

HMO will be retooled first. AAI has to finish out Mazda production until August. Mazda Body shop will be replaced with a brand-new one for the Fusion. There will also be upgrades done to Paint and Final that will support both the Fusion and next model Mustang.

 

AAI has an integrated stamping plant on site, and Woodhaven Stamping is 2 miles up the road, but if they follow the F-150 process, they will not have much work associated with the Fusion. I would expect all major stampings and sub-assemblies to be produced in Mexico and assembled at AAI, just as all stampings and sub-assemblies for the F150 are produced in Michigan and assembled in Kansas City. I hope I'm wrong. We could use the work in Michigan.

[rkisler]

HMO will be retooled first. AAI has to finish out Mazda production until August. Mazda Body shop will be replaced with a brand-new one for the Fusion. There will also be upgrades done to Paint and Final that will support both the Fusion and next model Mustang.

 

AAI has an integrated stamping plant on site, and Woodhaven Stamping is 2 miles up the road, but if they follow the F-150 process, they will not have much work associated with the Fusion. I would expect all major stampings and sub-assemblies to be produced in Mexico and assembled at AAI, just as all stampings and sub-assemblies for the F150 are produced in Michigan and assembled in Kansas City. I hope I'm wrong. We could use the work in Michigan.

 

Pioneer, I'm not sure if it will make much sense to send stampings or subs from Mexico to the U.S.or vise versa:

 

1. Getting material in or out of an integrated stamping plant is difficult; the plants aren't normally set up for this in the material flow.

2. Normally integrated staming facilities are sized to support the plant, so I don't think Hermosillo would have spare capacity. If they were only running two shifts, and ran the stamping at three, then maybe, but as far as I know, Hermosillo will remain 3-crew.

3. AAI can support the Mustang and the Mazda 6 (was 3 bodystyles) right now with the integrated stamping shop. The only wild card would be MKZ depending on where Ford puts it.

4. The cost of shipping sheet metal and particularly subs can eat up any tooling savings. In addition, with Hermosillo, you would be lengthening the supply chain considerably (which has inventory cost implications, limits flexibility, and requires some sort of warehouse facility).

 

So personally I think AAI's volume justifies a second set of dies. I don't see any business for Woodhaven, but I also don't see most of the metal coming from Mexico. Although I have delt with this type of issue in the past, I don't have any recency of experience and of course I don't have any actual facts or data at hand, so I could be completely off base.

[Pioneer]

Pioneer, I'm not sure if it will make much sense to send stampings or subs from Mexico to the U.S.or vise versa:

 

1. Getting material in or out of an integrated stamping plant is difficult; the plants aren't normally set up for this in the material flow.

2. Normally integrated staming facilities are sized to support the plant, so I don't think Hermosillo would have spare capacity. If they were only running two shifts, and ran the stamping at three, then maybe, but as far as I know, Hermosillo will remain 3-crew.

3. AAI can support the Mustang and the Mazda 6 (was 3 bodystyles) right now with the integrated stamping shop. The only wild card would be MKZ depending on where Ford puts it.

4. The cost of shipping sheet metal and particularly subs can eat up any tooling savings. In addition, with Hermosillo, you would be lengthening the supply chain considerably (which has inventory cost implications, limits flexibility, and requires some sort of warehouse facility).

 

So personally I think AAI's volume justifies a second set of dies. I don't see any business for Woodhaven, but I also don't see most of the metal coming from Mexico. Although I have delt with this type of issue in the past, I don't have any recency of experience and of course I don't have any actual facts or data at hand, so I could be completely off base.

 

I was just looking at it from the F-150 point of view. One set of stamping dies feeds two plants. All sub-assemblies (doors, hoods, tailgates) are assembled in Michigan and shipped to KC.

 

Hopefully I'm wrong. Would like the see the jobs up here.

[Pioneer]

And one thing that doesn't make sense is the shipping of engines from Europe. I would hope there is a plan in place for assembly here in the future. Ford has plenty of excess capacity at their engine plants to support them.

[Biker16]

And one thing that doesn't make sense is the shipping of engines from Europe. I would hope there is a plan in place for assembly here in the future. Ford has plenty of excess capacity at their engine plants to support them.

 

I can't understand Why they haven't Announced more north American Ecoboost production.

 

they are making the Hybrid 2.0 engine in Mexico not Michigan, while the anticipated volume for the 2.5 looks to be greatly affected by the Ecoboost 1.6, for has already adjusted Duratec 3.0 production by closing the CEP2, they have not adjusted I-4 production yet.

 

in euope they have 2 new EB I3 plants in germany and in Romania, 700,000 unit combined capacity.

 

one mediium I-4 ( 1.6 EB) 500,000 unit capacity.

 

one large l-4 plant (1.8-2.5) with 700,000 unit capacity

 

FOE has the capasity to export but why would they continue to? it is clear that EB is #1 in europe with the new I3 becoming the pread and butter engine for FOE, while the EB 20 being the top of the line engine option, and it's potential will be limited.

 

in North America we only have 2 large I-4 plants DEP 300,000 chihuahua@ 450,000 engine per year. and the fusion escape, focs and c-max 100% I4 doing a little math means we will soon be at or near capacity at those plants.

 

so what will ford do?

[RichardJensen]

the Trim line was shared between mazda and ford.

 

Wait. AAI has two body shops and one final assembly line?

[Biker16]

Wait. AAI has two body shops and one final assembly line?

 

yep.

[Pioneer]

 

 

in North America we only have 2 large I-4 plants DEP 300,000 chihuahua@ 450,000 engine per year. and the fusion escape, focs and c-max 100% I4 doing a little math means we will soon be at or near capacity at those plants.

 

so what will ford do?

 

Half of Dearborn Engines floorspace is the old SPI area and has been empty for a long time. You could fit a whole new production line and machining area into the empty floorspace with room to spare since the fuel tank area is now empty also.

[Biker16]

Half of Dearborn Engines floorspace is the old SPI area and has been empty for a long time. You could fit a whole new production line and machining area into the empty floorspace with room to spare since the fuel tank area is now empty also.

 

I realize that, but where is the annoucment? why wasn't new product promised to during union negociations?

 

what engine is being placed at CEP1?

[rkisler]

And one thing that doesn't make sense is the shipping of engines from Europe. I would hope there is a plan in place for assembly here in the future. Ford has plenty of excess capacity at their engine plants to support them.

 

I have been involved in sourcing studies, and I can say it's very difficult to judge from the outside without knowing the total plan. But....I've been very disappointed in Ford's balance of production between Europe and the U.S. I know we are all "One Ford" right now, but everyone should understand that there are still profit centers that can have an effect on decisions.

 

1. We are buying a lot of engines from Europe, as you and Biker mention.

 

2. Ford originally announced that the U.S. would be the sole source for Escape/Kuga, but that plan was cancelled, and Europe double tooled to produce Kuga there.

 

3. The Grand C-Max (now postponed or cancelled) was to be coming from Europe.

 

4. MAP could have been the sole source for the C-Max Hybrid and Energi. Would have made sense because the transmission and battery plants are close by, but....Europe is going to manufacture those versions locally.

 

5. As far as stuff going the other direction? Since the new eCVT for Hybrid/Energi is being built in Van Dyke, I suppose that could be shipped to Europe. I assume the dry clutch DCT is coming from Mexico?, but that plant is really owned 75% by Getrag and 25% by Ford Europe (yes, I know....One Ford). Battery packs made at Rawsonville for the Hybrid and Energi? Not sure, but they might not like the long journey and salty air.

 

So, I also anxiously awaiting to see if there is something else coming on 4-cylinders. As you guys have mentioned, the 2.5l is being relegated to the role of "price leader" in both the Escape and Fusion with projected rates of only 10% of carline, so something has to give.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Austin

[RichardJensen]

5. As far as stuff going the other direction? Since the new eCVT for Hybrid/Energi is being built in Van Dyke, I suppose that could be shipped to Europe. I assume the dry clutch DCT is coming from Mexico?, but that plant is really owned 75% by Getrag and 25% by Ford Europe (yes, I know....One Ford). Battery packs made at Rawsonville for the Hybrid and Energi? Not sure, but they might not like the long journey and salty air.

 

That's why I'm taking this report that Ford is planning export volume from OAC (S-Max presumably) with a grain of salt.

 

My art history professor said that, in the 50s, he visited (I believe) Chartres cathedral in France, and that you could access the roof at that time. When he got up there he found a number of German students in spiked mountain climbing boots walking along the parapets and gouging the limestone coping, apparently for the sheer thrill of damaging something French.

 

I repeat that anecdote because I think there is still a reek of tribalism in Europe, especially continental Europe. I wouldn't even dignify it with the term nationalism, as it seems to well up from deeper in the id than nationalism (if I may use Freudian terminology). Especially on the continent, it seems that sense of self is coupled closely with perceived ethnic identity, and if the Germans haven't gone so far as to try and build a fence and barricade around their language as the French have, one can be several generations a German citizen, yet if one is not ethnically German, one is not seen as German. That is something that is baffling to us as Americans.

 

I think it would be foolish to ignore this parochial and xenophobic attitude, such that Ford should probably avoid exports from the US/Canada to Europe seeing that three of the largest markets in Europe seem to believe--as part of their culture--they build cars better than any other country (Germans: "We invented the automobile"; Italians: "We have Ferrari and Pininfarina"; French: "We're French!")

 

Where this puts One Ford? I don't know. But the general complaisance of Americans regarding country of origin seems to mean that the Europeans are going to get their way. Factor in the militancy of European unions and, at this point, I'm not even sure that's a bad idea.

Edited January 10, 2012 by RichardJensen

[Biker16]

I have been involved in sourcing studies, and I can say it's very difficult to judge from the outside without knowing the total plan. But....I've been very disappointed in Ford's balance of production between Europe and the U.S. I know we are all "One Ford" right now, but everyone should understand that there are still profit centers that can have an effect on decisions.

 

 

 

1. We are buying a lot of engines from Europe, as you and Biker mention.

I have to believe that there is a plan, to resolve the imbalance.

 

 

2. Ford originally announced that the U.S. would be the sole source for Escape/Kuga, but that plan was cancelled, and Europe double tooled to produce Kuga there.

 

now that we have seen the Escape, it begins to make sense.

 

There will be very little duplication of tooling for the kuga and the escape, because they are basically C-max 5 with higher ground clearance. with the addition of the Transit connect to the plant in Spain and the TC mules buzzing around Dearborn with C-max7 top hats speaks to the integration between the TC and C2.

 

I think it's important to not to jump to conclusions looking for Xenophobic clues, but to have faith that there is a plan,. that makes sense to someone. the Kuga was likely part of greater plant in EU to realign products.

 

http://media.ford.com/news/fordofeuroperealignsproductionplanstosupportproductledgrowthstrategy.htm

 

3. The Grand C-Max (now postponed or cancelled) was to be coming from Europe.

 

Again Part of the puzzle, We seem to lack flexibility to build the products we can sell.

 

4. MAP could have been the sole source for the C-Max Hybrid and Energi. Would have made sense because the transmission and battery plants are close by, but....Europe is going to manufacture those versions locally.

 

the E-cvt will only be produced in the US, The EU also builds a lot more complex, more engines, LHD/RHD, more options. at this point in the maturation of the US C2 manufacturing base, adding too much complexity too soon can be dangerous, it easier to add US powerpa1cks to EU car than to add EU products to US plants. also It is about balancing production on a Global basis, FOE plant are under utilized right now while the opposite is true For US plants.

 

5. As far as stuff going the other direction? Since the new eCVT for Hybrid/Energi is being built in Van Dyke, I suppose that could be shipped to Europe. I assume the dry clutch DCT is coming from Mexico?, but that plant is really owned 75% by Getrag and 25% by Ford Europe (yes, I know....One Ford). Battery packs made at Rawsonville for the Hybrid and Energi? Not sure, but they might not like the long journey and salty air.

 

battery packs will be shippied to EU as well. the dry DCT is being made in france(?) for global markets, which is why they were having issues in russia and OZ with the DCT in the focus. There is a learning curve for the plant and the transmission.

 

So, I also anxiously awaiting to see if there is something else coming on 4-cylinders. As you guys have mentioned, the 2.5l is being relegated to the role of "price leader" in both the Escape and Fusion with projected rates of only 10% of carline, so something has to give.

 

I Suspect ford is developing a New large I4 engine family and/or a extensive upgrade to the existing architecture.

 

http://www.fox8.com/wjw-news-600-jobs-coming-to-brook-park-ford-plant,0,6280315.story

 

Also, Gammella tells Fox 8's Jack Shea, Engine Plant No. 1 will eventually add a new four-cylinder engine program that will require about 250 additional workers. To start, roughly 260,000 of the new fuel-efficient engines will be manufactured annually. The engines are made for the Edge and Escape models, though they might be used for other models down the road.

 

The CAW contract is up this year I'd expect ford to show their cards for OAC and Windsor then.

 

I could see a major investment at OAC to build the next generation Edge, MKX and Transit connect.

Windsor could win production of the Lion TDCi, for the Transit, and light duty truck.

[RichardJensen]

Why would the Transit Connect go to OAC? Why wouldn't it be plus volume at the Escape plant, now that the Kuga export has been scotched?

Edited January 10, 2012 by RichardJensen

[Gnostic]

what about the nano v6, where does that fit in?

[Moosetang]

what about the nano v6, where does that fit in?

The Fusion SHO engine bay, I hope