Stray Kat Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I apologize for starting yet another 5.0 thread but I wanted to address a couple factors discussed previously by others. For some enthusiasts like myself the points I'd like to cover are important enough to not get buried. It begins with the thought that the earlier Mods and now the 5.0 Coyote are not good canidates for powering or repowering "niche" vehicles because of their size. I disagree, consider these examples. A couple production vehicles that come to mind that used Mod power to great advantage were the recent Ford GT and the Panoz sports cars. MG had a Mod in one of their recent cars as well as the Nobile supercar. Further some fellows stated that the 5.0 Coyote would not be desireable sizewise when thinking in terms of the aftermarket. The example of the sbc powered Ford bodied street rods would never be suplanted by Ford's new engine because of the size issue. I whole heartily disagree with that. The sbc is used because it is cheap and when Chevrolet designed it they must have had a Flathead Ford nearby. They have very similar profiles. The new LS GM engine is not that way at all. I"ll grant you that the LS is a "fairly" narrow engine, but it is also long. In fact it is the bore spacing that makes it so. That is NOT what you need in and early Ford. The 5.0 on the other hand is a short engine which is exactly what early Ford engine compartments require. Height is not so much an issue because the early cars were not challenged in that way. In fact the few LS into early cars I've seen look low and lost in the early car's engine bay. Width is not that critical in most early Fords, in fact the wide heads of the contemporary Ford engines look nice and "hemi" like. The sad fact is that after the Flathead, Ford engine design went in a direction that was much different than what they had. Longer front cover dimensions and front oil sumps were the main issues. Most guys dumped sbc's in there because it was cheap and sl e z e. I beg of you Ford, please market this engine to the early Ford rod builders. Give them some support with this new incredible engine you have. I think it's high time to make a dent in the sbc's popularity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted December 31, 2009 Author Share Posted December 31, 2009 OK so this thread is a dud and sound like the ramblings of a madman, but this is what I'm talking about...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sizzler Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 It's not really the "long and short" of it. It's the "in and out". For the same (actually smaller) external dimensions, you can choose either 302 cubic inches (5.0) from the new modular, or you can have 500++ cubic inches. And you can have those 500+ cubic inches with an overhead cam and hemi heads. I'm sorry, but I'm guessing, based on sales and installations (not too many mods installed in rods), that most people would choose what's INSIDE the package. Like buying a huge box of cereal only to find that it's only half full when you open the box. 37 Buick and Mazda RX-7 get the big cubic inch blocks, huge little cubic inch mods were never considered... 60 Sunbeam Tiger and 32 Ford choose cereal over box size... 05 Mustang owner chose 500 cubic inch overhead cam hemi instead of 281 wimp. Imagine that... No fake plastic covers here... 427 in a Pantera, could you imagine trying to fit a modular in there? and I'm sorry, but the modular, while not ugly per se, just isn't in the same league looks-wise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTruel Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 For the '50's and '60's fullsize cars, width isn't a huge concern. For the small cars, like mustangs, falcons and fairlanes, plus most of the cars from the '20's, '30's and '40's width is a HUGE issue. Squeezing a windsor or a cleveland into a stock suspensioned mustang or falcon is difficult, putting a mod in one is nearly impossible without going to a mustang II style front end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomaro Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 The only mods worth installing in a vintage ride are the Terminator, Lightning, and GT500/GT powerplants. Lets face it...they needs boost. SBC rules the world because, as you guys already said, they are cheap. Hot Rod magazine is a collection of "custom" rods who all share the 350/Turbo 350 combo. To me, its boring, stale, and just following the pack. For most people, its not cost effective to do a mod swap. They really do not offer any advantage over the Windsor, FE, or 385 series engines from Ford. The biggest advantage I see is being original. With that being said, I have seen lots of cool rides with MOD swaps...Lightning powered Crown Vics, Terminated T-Bird Turbo Coupes, GT500 powered Mercury Comets, etc. And props to Koenigsegg for using MOD motors in some of the baddest cars on erath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Greene Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I don't think this thread is boring or a "dud". It's nice to see Ford engines in "recreations". I'm always disappointed when I go to a cruise or car show, see a vintage modified Ford there, open the hood, and it's got a Chevy engine in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted December 31, 2009 Author Share Posted December 31, 2009 The fact of the matter is that in the so called "street rod/ hot rod" genre the vast majority of builders use a 350 sbc with a 350 trans. Only in the old school style of rod do you see much variation. The aftermarket street rod industry has chosen the sbc as the "standard" engine platform. Most of the aftermarket caters to the sbc by a large margin. The LSx engine family has not made a huge impact into the early car segment yet because it's configuration takes a lot more work to install it and make it pretty. IMO the Modular Fords and now maybe even more so the 5.0 Coyote makes a much better package due to it's outward dimensions and sheer good looks. They are clean and tight looking with compact and simple accessory drive systems. Rear sump pans just like the Flatheads and short overall length that does not require firewall surgery to get them installed. In the real world I don't see where the GM LS engine has even the earlier Mod covered in the power producing dept much less the new 5.0. There are just too many 500+ hp Mods out there to ignore. True the easiest route is through supercharging but is'nt that the beauty of it too? It's far easier for most people to bolt in a factory supercharged engine or even bolt a supercharger on top than it is to delve into an engine and rebuild it for more power. Further the only so called "cheap" engines to rebuild is the sbc and the sbf. You start buying aftermarket this and that for anything else and your wallet will feel it. Check out the prices of hopping up an Olds, Caddy or Hemi and you'll see what I mean. A good driveable small block signs off at about 400 hp. With a Modular Ford 550 or 600hp street engines are reality, with ease as well. What's so bad? The one thing that need to be done is for Ford themselves to support and promote this engine to niche markets. I hope Ford is pursuing that as we speak. I would think there is not a more inexpensive way thah to supply this engine/driveline package right off the production assembly line. Here are some phots from Factory Five's website of there new hi perf `33 Roadster kit displaying the Mod Ford installation. I think it comes off pretty darn well........ It seems to me that the 5.0 Coyote to take the goodness of this to the next level.....probably 430-450 hp in uncorked crate form with OEM quality, and manners just as it stands right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blksn8k2 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 As soon as I started reading this thread I thought of Factory Five's 33. The Coyote would probably make a nice motor for their 65 Coupe as well. Taking this in another direction, how many of you are aware of the 67-70 Mustang body shells from Dynacorn? These are reproduction bodies that are pre-assembled and come with a Ford Official Licensed Product certification. I am seriously considering building one of these as soon as I complete my 70 Mach 1 restoration project. I have used many Dynacorn body parts on this project and in most cases they fit as well or better than the original Ford parts. I would probably do the next one as a "restomod" meaning it would have the look of the original car but use more modern suspension and drivetrain components. Today there are bolt-on coil-over front and rear suspensions available for early Mustangs as well as rack and pinion steering systems. You would have the styling of the classic body with the driveablilty of a modern performance car. I think a 5.0 Coyote would be perfect for something like this. The only concern would be whether it would fit between the shock towers but there are ways around that as well. Add either of the new 6-speed transmissions and you would have a powerful and efficient powertrain. The only missing link would be a way to integrate the electronics for the engine and transmission into the early car's electrical system. http://www.dynacornclassicbodies.com/ford_models2.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiefstang Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 (edited) It's not really the "long and short" of it. It's the "in and out". For the same (actually smaller) external dimensions, you can choose either 302 cubic inches (5.0) from the new modular, or you can have 500++ cubic inches. And you can have those 500+ cubic inches with an overhead cam and hemi heads. I'm sorry, but I'm guessing, based on sales and installations (not too many mods installed in rods), that most people would choose what's INSIDE the package. Like buying a huge box of cereal only to find that it's only half full when you open the box. 37 Buick and Mazda RX-7 get the big cubic inch blocks, huge little cubic inch mods were never considered... 60 Sunbeam Tiger and 32 Ford choose cereal over box size... 05 Mustang owner chose 500 cubic inch overhead cam hemi instead of 281 wimp. Imagine that... No fake plastic covers here... 427 in a Pantera, could you imagine trying to fit a modular in there? and I'm sorry, but the modular, while not ugly per se, just isn't in the same league looks-wise... Nice. Compare chromed out show car engines and bitch that Ford's production motor doesn't look as nice. Your stupid tank is on full, bub. Edited December 31, 2009 by chiefstang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atvman Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Would the Coyote fit in a Shelby Cobra kit car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 and I'm sorry, but the modular, while not ugly per se, just isn't in the same league looks-wise... Say what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Modular crate engine from FRPP 400HP Suggested retail $24,995.00 ! A plain old 350HP 3-valve 4.6 will set you back $7,000 Supercharged 5.4L 605HP will set you back $18,150.00 Real Hot Hods used to be built by guys going to a junk yard and pulling an engine that had good bang-for-the-buck horsepower potential and building it up in their garage. Now they just buy a complete Chassis a prefab body and slap in a crate engine. Little actual knowledge or skill required...just big bucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildosvt Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Real Hot Hods used to be built by guys going to a junk yard and pulling an engine that had good bang-for-the-buck horsepower potential and building it up in their garage. Now they just buy a complete Chassis a prefab body and slap in a crate engine. Little actual knowledge or skill required...just big bucks. Bingo! This car toook $350K to build IIRC. It may have been more, It is a work of art either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted January 1, 2010 Author Share Posted January 1, 2010 Just saw a `73 Pantera go accross the auction block at Barrett- Jackson. Low and behold it was converted to a DOHC Mod engine with indv stack fuel inj. Looked like it was made for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted January 1, 2010 Author Share Posted January 1, 2010 Real Hot Hods used to be built by guys going to a junk yard and pulling an engine that had good bang-for-the-buck horsepower potential and building it up in their garage. Now they just buy a complete Chassis a prefab body and slap in a crate engine. Little actual knowledge or skill required...just big bucks. The so called "traditional style" movement adheres to that mindset. The trouble is you can't go to a boneyard and pull a low mileage Flathead, Y- block, Nailhead, Caddy etc. out of a wreck anymore. You are now buying semi rare stuff and the prices go up accordingly. You can easily put 10 grand into an early powertrain if you want the bells a whistles, sometimes much more. I myself am a diehard Flathead fan. Our club is called "Cigar City Flatheads". My `41 Ford Business Coupe runs a Flathead. When I get in my old car I want to be taken back, I don't want to feel like I'm in a modern appliance. The thing is though many people do want modern driveability. They want A/T, A/C, and disc brakes. In fact I'd say more than half of the typical street rodders want all that. That's a big chunk of potential customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 I like both---of course that's just from a guy who likes to gawk at car shows. Never tried to build one... I used to joke that I wanted to get an old British sports car so I could have something to cuss at on the weekends. But I do tend to be a bit of a snob when it comes to SBC powered Fords. I've got a little mental checklist and I put a tick in the box labeled "Conformist". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blksn8k2 Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 The so called "traditional style" movement adheres to that mindset. The trouble is you can't go to a boneyard and pull a low mileage Flathead, Y- block, Nailhead, Caddy etc. out of a wreck anymore. You are now buying semi rare stuff and the prices go up accordingly. You can easily put 10 grand into an early powertrain if you want the bells a whistles, sometimes much more. I myself am a diehard Flathead fan. Our club is called "Cigar City Flatheads". My `41 Ford Business Coupe runs a Flathead. When I get in my old car I want to be taken back, I don't want to feel like I'm in a modern appliance. The thing is though many people do want modern driveability. They want A/T, A/C, and disc brakes. In fact I'd say more than half of the typical street rodders want all that. That's a big chunk of potential customers. Exactly. Saying that the new trends take no skill is one thing but doing it the old way is getting more and more difficult as parts become harder and harder to find. Try buying any engine part for a 428 CJ. I can tell you from experience that they are extremely rare and when you do find the part you need expect to pay a premium. Total production over two and half years was only a few thousand cars so most of these parts are not being reproduced because there would be no volume to justify the tooling costs. There are days and situations when I prefer an older style muscle car or a 4x4 off-road beast and there are others when I want or need the modern conveniences. My solution: build or buy one of each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White99GT Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) The only mods worth installing in a vintage ride are the Terminator, Lightning, and GT500/GT powerplants. Lets face it...they needs boost. You do realize FRPP and Roush-Yates both offer N/A 5.0L Cammer crate engines that make more power than any of the engines you listed, right? 5.0L Cammers in 550 HP trim (naturally aspirated) have been smacking down race spec 7.0L LS7s in FIA GT3. They don't "need" boost, but they have made in excess of 2500 HP (@ 4.6L) with boost. :D Edited January 1, 2010 by White99GT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
200MPHCOBRA Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Call me crazy, but I think the mod motors are beautiful, especially the 3 & 4 valves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White99GT Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 and I'm sorry, but the modular, while not ugly per se, just isn't in the same league looks-wise... Oh really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Oh really? Damn that thing sounds nice and looks nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue II Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Oh really? He also offers 2X4V Holley set up's and 3X2V Holley (Tri Power) set ups. He may be experiencing some business problems at the momment. Some say he is Chapter 11. Nice stuff though. I've heard them at some Ford shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sizzler Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 (edited) Exactly. Saying that the new trends take no skill is one thing but doing it the old way is getting more and more difficult as parts become harder and harder to find. Try buying any engine part for a 428 CJ. I can tell you from experience that they are extremely rare and when you do find the part you need expect to pay a premium. Total production over two and half years was only a few thousand cars so most of these parts are not being reproduced because there would be no volume to justify the tooling costs.There are days and situations when I prefer an older style muscle car or a 4x4 off-road beast and there are others when I want or need the modern conveniences. My solution: build or buy one of each. Actually, FE parts are numerous, relatively cheap, and still being developed...here's a new set of canted valve heads for the FE... I think these might be the modular carb intake adapters...talk about an expensive engine, not just the base (which was $425 just for the adapter, then another $600 for the intake itself, or over a $1,000 for the complete intake setup alone), but every aftermarket part seems to be 2 or 3 times as expensive as for the 385-series, Windsor, Cleveland or FE equivalent part, and then you have 4 times the cam count too! Kaase is still developing heads and other products for the 460, including updated hemi heads that can be used on standard blocks. Jon Kaase Because parts are still being developed I know that DAMB engines have issues with valve lift, which is why rockers with multiplication factors are still needed, except in blown applications. Unless someone has learned something new. What is the max valve lift on the 3.5/3.7 heads? Edited January 2, 2010 by Sizzler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB390fe Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Actually, FE parts are numerous, relatively cheap, and still being developed...here's a new set of canted valve heads for the FE... Who is working on those heads??? I wonder what intake the adapter plates are for... (Yeah, I've got a couple er 3 FE parts in my garage... and basement.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Actually, FE parts are numerous, relatively cheap, and still being developed.. So buy an [expletive deleted] FE and shut up about what Ford puts in production cars. And stop using Henrik Fisker's vaporware to goad Ford about their "post-IC" strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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