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I understand personal responsibility in shopping around to help control costs, however event the CEO of whole foods said it was a temporary fix, and that their costs are beginning to rise again.

 

I do however beg to differ on the effect of government intervention though, price capping and tort reform will bring costs down. Frivolous law suits also have to be dealt with to reduce the costs to physicians wanting to practice, there also needs to be grant money to alleviate schooling costs to new physicians!

 

You the man Furious +100

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You don't think doctors in the U.S. misdiagnose patients Ha Ha. Almost any chronic pain is diagnosed as fibromyalgia and they define ordinary behaviors as conditions in order to supply people with their overpriced medicines to keep people sedated. As for a U.S. Ford worker having better coverage then what the government will offer, the proposal is for a government option. This means that people happy with their current private plan can keep it, and if it is better they will! However people on Care Source, and medicaid have better coverage with less cost per recipient then U.S. Ford workers do. What are the co-pays for a U.S. autoworker? That's right $25 per office visit, $50 urgent Care, $100.00 for emergency room. What is the cost to a medicaid patient? $0.00 Same care lower cost, you figure it out Trim.

 

When you get a paycheck and see over $1000 deduction for income tax, you will not mind going back to paying a few bucks out of pocket for a doctor visit. Hell, I would be willing to pay that much just to avoid the 4 to 8 hour wait.

The number of Americans without health care insurance is greatly exaggerated by the left, and it is their own fault. If they have the income, they should be getting coverage. Don't wait until you get sick and expect to get insurance.

We are drifting towards a Totalitarian government. Take a look at who Obama is surrounding himself with, as he suggested you do in one of his speeches. He is surrounding himself with Communists like Van Jones.

This is not about better health care. It is about more and bigger government. The left doesn't give a rat's ass about your well being. All they want is more power over you. It is way past time for the people to wake up.

GE has billions in green contracts from the government. They own 80% of NBC and it's affiliates. When one of the biggest scandals in the history of the Democrats broke, there was not a peep from NBC. Talk about conflict of interest! Van Jones is just the tip of the iceberg. Sooner or later, the liberal media will have to start doing its job, or they will not have an audience left. I forgot. The government wants to ram through the "fairness doctrine". This will prevent the news from being reported unless it is first approved by the government.

This is not conspiracy theory or fear mongering. It is happening.

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When you get a paycheck and see over $1000 deduction for income tax, you will not mind going back to paying a few bucks out of pocket for a doctor visit. Hell, I would be willing to pay that much just to avoid the 4 to 8 hour wait.

The number of Americans without health care insurance is greatly exaggerated by the left, and it is their own fault. If they have the income, they should be getting coverage. Don't wait until you get sick and expect to get insurance.

We are drifting towards a Totalitarian government. Take a look at who Obama is surrounding himself with, as he suggested you do in one of his speeches. He is surrounding himself with Communists like Van Jones.

This is not about better health care. It is about more and bigger government. The left doesn't give a rat's ass about your well being. All they want is more power over you. It is way past time for the people to wake up.

GE has billions in green contracts from the government. They own 80% of NBC and it's affiliates. When one of the biggest scandals in the history of the Democrats broke, there was not a peep from NBC. Talk about conflict of interest! Van Jones is just the tip of the iceberg. Sooner or later, the liberal media will have to start doing its job, or they will not have an audience left. I forgot. The government wants to ram through the "fairness doctrine". This will prevent the news from being reported unless it is first approved by the government.

This is not conspiracy theory or fear mongering. It is happening.

 

More government fear mongering, I generally agree in limiting government control and intervention. However social medicine is needed for the same reason that the police, fire department, and our education system is publicly funded. Medical care is a basic human rite, and denying people care to cut liabilities is ridiculous. Say what you like Trim, but if you lived here and you got sick regardless of how much you have saved and how much you own you run the risk of becoming penniless. That is a fact, and not just my imagination.

 

How is it fair for a man/women to be industrious and make smart decisions to better their self and build wealth, and with one illness, or injury have it all wiped away. This is the way it is in the USA!

 

People cannot control getting sick, and should not be extorted if it happens to them!

Edited by Furious1Auto
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However social medicine is needed for the same reason that the police, fire department, and our education system is publicly funded. Medical care is a basic human rite, and denying people care to cut liabilities is ridiculous.

 

food is a far more basic need then healthcare. shouldn't food be free too?

 

and shelter and water too.

 

Government should mandate that the homeless buy houses or pay a fine. and the hungry should be forced to buy food, or pay a fine.

 

 

hmmm...an error in the logic has appeared.

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food is a far more basic need then healthcare. shouldn't food be free too?

 

and shelter and water too.

 

Government should mandate that the homeless buy houses or pay a fine. and the hungry should be forced to buy food, or pay a fine.

 

 

hmmm...an error in the logic has appeared.

 

 

Right, and you will argue the point until the day you get sick or hurt and watch everything you have taken from you to pay for the current system you are protecting. My logic is sound, and the current system will be reformed. No employer, and or employee can sustain the current rate of medical care cost inflation. How much more will you be asked to pay to sustain the same coverages in the future if things continue the way they are? How much more liability are you whiling to accept? The problem has got to be fixed, and the longer the wait the more serious the problem becomes!

Edited by Furious1Auto
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Right, and you will argue the point until the day you get sick or hurt and watch everything you have taken from you to pay for the current system you are protecting. My logic is sound, and the current system will be reformed. No employer, and or employee can sustain the current rate of medical care cost inflation. How much more will you be asked to pay to sustain the same coverages in the future if things continue the way they are? How much more liability are you whiling to accept? The problem has got to be fixed, and the longer the wait the more serious the problem becomes!

 

Nah, i'm in my 15th month of cancer treatment. I have a very good basis for my opinions.

 

The problem that needs fixing is employer based insurance. Tying insurance to your job is a bad idea. Eliminating the connection between cost and usage, is a bad idea.

 

The solution is not more bureaucracy between a patient and a doctor.

 

Insurance works very well when the consumer makes decisions directly (home, auto, life, fire insurance etc.) Medical coverage can be just as successful.

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Nah, i'm in my 15th month of cancer treatment. I have a very good basis for my opinions.

 

The problem that needs fixing is employer based insurance. Tying insurance to your job is a bad idea. Eliminating the connection between cost and usage, is a bad idea.

 

The solution is not more bureaucracy between a patient and a doctor.

 

Insurance works very well when the consumer makes decisions directly (home, auto, life, fire insurance etc.) Medical coverage can be just as successful.

 

 

Preserving the insurance companies role is the reason that the cost of medical care is what it is today. That is not opinion it is fact. If people paid directly out of pocket the cost of medical care would never have reached today's pricing, the market doesn't bear it. Tort reform is the answer.

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Preserving the insurance companies role is the reason that the cost of medical care is what it is today. That is not opinion it is fact. If people paid directly out of pocket the cost of medical care would never have reached today's pricing, the market doesn't bear it. Tort reform is the answer.

Be very, very careful what you wish for in the area of "tort reform". We got "tort reform" in Michigan ten years ago, under a Republican legislature and a Republican governor, then Governor John Engler, and they added a lot of non-medical tort "reforms" that bit people in the ass. I personally have suffered under that (the non medical "tort reforms").

Edited by Len_A
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Quote..."we first have to stop insuring against the affordable." Please define "the affordable"

 

So forget Michael Moore.... and look at real research. Then you can explain why insurance companies should be deciding treatment programs, and where I can be treated. After all, competition improves efficiency, I want to use the best hospitals but my insurer doesn't allow it.

 

Please list affordable conditions... Thanks

Good point. It seems to me that the people should be worried about the insurance companies getting between the patient and his/her doctor which is frequently the case now.People talk about socialized medicine and how bad it is in countries that have it.Let me ask as to how many countries or provinces which have socialized medicine have ever tried to get rid of it? Yet some of the main countries which have it have had conservative governments some of which are more to the right than the republicans.Of course the answer is simple the people would run them out of office.If they tried to remove it If you check you will find that the biggest problems that they tend to face in these countries is a shortage of doctors.Edmund Burke once said,"Those who have been once intoxicated with power,and have derived any kind of emolument from it,even though but for one year,can never willingly abandon it."He made this statement prior to the American revolution,YET, one could reasonably conclude that he was talking about the Republican party of to-day!They refuse to forgive the American voter for throwing them out of office.This is why this is such an issue .THET OPPOSED SOCIAL SECURITY,THEY OPPOSED MEDICARE AND NOW THEY OPPOSE THIS.Everything that they oppose[d] have one thing in common-----they were good for the American worker.Enough said.

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Points of interest....

 

* Obama said the changes he wants would cost about $900 billion over a decade, "less than we have spent on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and less than the tax cuts for the wealthiest few Americans" passed during the Bush administration.

 

FOR THOSE WHO INSIST THAT THE US HAS THE BEST HEALTH CARE

 

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

 

http://allcountries.org/health/usa_health_care_2008_nyt.html

 

* Editor's note: Neither in this article, nor in any of the articles that I have read during this long debate about US health care, have I seen mention of one of the most fundamental flaws of the American health system: the deliberately created shortage of physicians - not an accident, but by law (surely passed with some help from the American Medical Association, the doctors' advocate), which for decades specifically rewards US universitie$ that limit enrolment in their medical schools. This shortage has not only resulted in a plethora of wealthy doctors and impoverished (and often dead or sicker) patients, but also the lack of easy access to doctors, drugs and hospitals by the US population. Among other tangible consequences of this mess is that the US ranks last among developed countries in limiting preventable deaths (2008) and 37th in the World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems (2000), in which the population's access to medical care is an important component.

 

http://allcountries.org/health/usa_health_..._economist.html

 

* The American health-care system, which gobbles up about 16% of the country’s economic output, is by far the most expensive in the world. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that on current trends spending on Medicare and Medicaid, the government schemes for the old and the poor, will rise from 4% of GDP in 2007 to 12% in 2050. The prospect of long-term fiscal disaster is the main reason why efforts to reform health care are gaining momentum in Washington, DC.

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* The American health-care system, which gobbles up about 16% of the country’s economic output, is by far the most expensive in the world. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that on current trends spending on Medicare and Medicaid, the government schemes for the old and the poor, will rise from 4% of GDP in 2007 to 12% in 2050. The prospect of long-term fiscal disaster is the main reason why efforts to reform health care are gaining momentum in Washington, DC.

 

And that is what it is! No individual, and/or employer can sustain the current rate of health care cost inflation. Everyone needs care available to them regardless of the economy, and our financial woes. If we do nothing then in a short while only the wealthy will even be able to afford care. What good is it to have even the best health care services (which we don't have) if no one can afford it?

 

If elderly people need real motivation at town hall meetings then they need to look at what their script is costing them, and think of what it will cost them 5 years from now if we do nothing to reform the costs! Death panels my a-s, what about being extorted to live 1 extra day?

Edited by Furious1Auto
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Good point. It seems to me that the people should be worried about the insurance companies getting between the patient and his/her doctor which is frequently the case now.People talk about socialized medicine and how bad it is in countries that have it.Let me ask as to how many countries or provinces which have socialized medicine have ever tried to get rid of it? Yet some of the main countries which have it have had conservative governments some of which are more to the right than the republicans.Of course the answer is simple the people would run them out of office.If they tried to remove it If you check you will find that the biggest problems that they tend to face in these countries is a shortage of doctors.Edmund Burke once said,"Those who have been once intoxicated with power,and have derived any kind of emolument from it,even though but for one year,can never willingly abandon it."He made this statement prior to the American revolution,YET, one could reasonably conclude that he was talking about the Republican party of to-day!They refuse to forgive the American voter for throwing them out of office.This is why this is such an issue .THET OPPOSED SOCIAL SECURITY,THEY OPPOSED MEDICARE AND NOW THEY OPPOSE THIS.Everything that they oppose[d] have one thing in common-----they were good for the American worker.Enough said.

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Once socialized medicine is in place, you can't get rid of it. The reason is because there are too many people who pay no tax who will always vote to keep it because it is free for them.

 

Under socialized health care, everyone is covered, but it could be hadardous to your health. My fear of this is such that I do not see doctors in Canada. I think that my health care is so bad that I am not willing to risk using it. I am paying enough through taxes that I could almost have my own private physician. At least I could have 1/10th of one. Instead, I get the same as a bum on the street. I would have to wait for hours in a crowded waiting room full of coughing wretches, picking up God knows what diseases. No thanks. So far, my immune system is looking after me just fine. If there were no doctors or hospitals in Canada, nothing would change for me. I bet that I outlive 90% of people who see the doctor regularly. In Canada, if you have to go to the doctor, your day is shot.

 

One time I had to go to an ear specialist. I waited for 4 hours, and he spent a total of 10 seconds checking my ears. It was a total waste of time and tax money.

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Instead, I get the same as a bum on the street. I would have to wait for hours in a crowded waiting room full of coughing wretches, picking up God knows what diseases. No thanks.

 

 

That's a really nice way to think of your fellow citizens. Wow, I'm sorry not everyone makes as much money as you......

 

Very classy........

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Instead, I get the same as a bum on the street. I would have to wait for hours in a crowded waiting room full of coughing wretches, picking up God knows what diseases. No thanks.... In Canada, if you have to go to the doctor, your day is shot. One time I had to go to an ear specialist. I waited for 4 hours, and he spent a total of 10 seconds checking my ears. It was a total waste of time and tax money.

 

Stupid is as stupid does......Run Forest Run :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:

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More government fear mongering, I generally agree in limiting government control and intervention. However social medicine is needed for the same reason that the police, fire department, and our education system is publicly funded. Medical care is a basic human rite, and denying people care to cut liabilities is ridiculous. Say what you like Trim, but if you lived here and you got sick regardless of how much you have saved and how much you own you run the risk of becoming penniless. That is a fact, and not just my imagination.

 

How is it fair for a man/women to be industrious and make smart decisions to better their self and build wealth, and with one illness, or injury have it all wiped away. This is the way it is in the USA!

 

People cannot control getting sick, and should not be extorted if it happens to them!

 

No system is going to be perfect. There will always be someone who suffers. Under your current system, the great majority of people have excellent health care. Under socialized health care, everybody will have poor health care. In Canada, 25% of the people subsidize the other 75%. At $50,000 income, you are paying approximately the correct amount. At $75,000, you are paying 150%, and at $100,000, you are paying double. Below $50,000, someone else is paying for all or part of your health care. Since there are more people on the receiving end than on the paying end, it will never be voted out. That is the way of socialism. It is irreversible, until the whole economy collapses or there is a civil war.

 

If a car can be built right from the basic raw materials in the earth, and sold to the public at an affordable price, either new or used, why can't medical operations be done at an affordable price? Why do we have to be held for ransom just because doctors have the power of life and death over us?

 

Now the government is affecting the agriculture industry by using the excuse of helping endangered fish species to cut off water to farmland. Maybe they want to create a food shortage so they can take over the distribution of food. They can starve the people into submission like was done in the USSR. There is more and more talk about the "dangers" of obesity. I wouldn't put it past them.

 

They now have the perfect leader. If you criticize anything he does, you are accused of being a racist.

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No system is going to be perfect. There will always be someone who suffers. Under your current system, the great majority of people have excellent health care. Under socialized health care, everybody will have poor health care. In Canada, 25% of the people subsidize the other 75%. At $50,000 income, you are paying approximately the correct amount. At $75,000, you are paying 150%, and at $100,000, you are paying double. Below $50,000, someone else is paying for all or part of your health care. Since there are more people on the receiving end than on the paying end, it will never be voted out. That is the way of socialism. It is irreversible, until the whole economy collapses or there is a civil war.

 

If a car can be built right from the basic raw materials in the earth, and sold to the public at an affordable price, either new or used, why can't medical operations be done at an affordable price? Why do we have to be held for ransom just because doctors have the power of life and death over us?

 

Now the government is affecting the agriculture industry by using the excuse of helping endangered fish species to cut off water to farmland. Maybe they want to create a food shortage so they can take over the distribution of food. They can starve the people into submission like was done in the USSR. There is more and more talk about the "dangers" of obesity. I wouldn't put it past them.

 

They now have the perfect leader. If you criticize anything he does, you are accused of being a racist.

 

Yes... Canada has stupid people too....

 

and they won't shut up either....just like stupid people everywhere.

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No system is going to be perfect. There will always be someone who suffers. Under your current system, the great majority of people have excellent health care. Under socialized health care, everybody will have poor health care. In Canada, 25% of the people subsidize the other 75%. At $50,000 income, you are paying approximately the correct amount. At $75,000, you are paying 150%, and at $100,000, you are paying double. Below $50,000, someone else is paying for all or part of your health care. Since there are more people on the receiving end than on the paying end, it will never be voted out. That is the way of socialism. It is irreversible, until the whole economy collapses or there is a civil war.

 

If a car can be built right from the basic raw materials in the earth, and sold to the public at an affordable price, either new or used, why can't medical operations be done at an affordable price? Why do we have to be held for ransom just because doctors have the power of life and death over us?

 

Now the government is affecting the agriculture industry by using the excuse of helping endangered fish species to cut off water to farmland. Maybe they want to create a food shortage so they can take over the distribution of food. They can starve the people into submission like was done in the USSR. There is more and more talk about the "dangers" of obesity. I wouldn't put it past them.

 

They now have the perfect leader. If you criticize anything he does, you are accused of being a racist.

 

Trim I respect your post, most of the time, some are a bit over the top. You are stuck on this socialized thing....A single payer system (like medicare) is not socialized medicine. The biggest change that needs to occur in the US, is for doctors, and the patient to make medical decisions not insurance companies. Insurance companies through actuary science study what is profitable to cover. Again, we in the US can make a major impact on health care cost by eliminating the middle man, standardizing covered services etc. Just think how many people a doctor's office employs just to handle insurance forms. Multiply that by all the hospitals / doctor offices in the United States and you have the tip of the iceberg in the United States.

 

Not to mention all the tax money that has gone toward medical research, drug treatment etc. And a private company is awarded a patent and allowed to sell treatment back to the patient for a profit...what a perfect scheme, for the research company. We can take the profit made and make a healthy campaign contribution to politician A who helped get funding for treatment.

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Again, we in the US can make a major impact on health care cost by eliminating the middle man, standardizing covered services etc. Just think how many people a doctor's office employs just to handle insurance forms. Multiply that by all the hospitals / doctor offices in the United States and you have the tip of the iceberg in the United States.

 

Oh yeah....everyone knows that the government does everything more efficiently......you know like the post office, the DMV and it's estimated that there is $60-100 billion a year in fraud just within medicare....

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Oh yeah....everyone knows that the government does everything more efficiently......you know like the post office, the DMV and it's estimated that there is $60-100 billion a year in fraud just within medicare....

 

And this doesn't occur with other insurances? How are those social security checks ever printed... They wrote a pretty good Constitution

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Oh yeah....everyone knows that the government does everything more efficiently......you know like the post office, the DMV and it's estimated that there is $60-100 billion a year in fraud just within medicare....

 

 

FAIL!!!

 

Um the post office is efficient, and before electronic communications served this country well for hundreds of years. Second the BMV is owned by private contractors, these agents have to bid the work and it is very profitable to the store owners. You picked the wrong agencies to point out, my ex-wife worked for the BMV, and my girl's father works for the post office! You can argue DMV, BMV however different states have different acronyms for the same entity!

 

You need to find failing government programs if you want to drive your point home.

Edited by Furious1Auto
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Efficient?

USPS 2.8 billion in the red-

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/20...ce-budget_N.htm

 

The USPS runs on it's own revenue and is not subsidized by the Fed. Gov. and since they do not allow any competition for domestic mail they ran a monopoly into the ground.

 

The Ohio DMV is a subsidiary of Ohio Dept.of Public Safety which the core is state run and controlled.

The actually locations are subbed out and run by whatever door knob wins the bid.

 

 

Anytime an organization is subsidized by government money it's taxpayers money. If you work and pay taxes it's going to cost you. If your not working or paying taxes you got another freebie.

Government produces nothing but takes a big % of those companies and individuals that actually do.

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Efficient?

USPS 2.8 billion in the red-

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/20...ce-budget_N.htm

 

The USPS runs on it's own revenue and is not subsidized by the Fed. Gov. and since they do not allow any competition for domestic mail they ran a monopoly into the ground.

 

The Ohio DMV is a subsidiary of Ohio Dept.of Public Safety which the core is state run and controlled.

The actually locations are subbed out and run by whatever door knob wins the bid.

 

 

Anytime an organization is subsidized by government money it's taxpayers money. If you work and pay taxes it's going to cost you. If your not working or paying taxes you got another freebie.

Government produces nothing but takes a big % of those companies and individuals that actually do.

 

 

The post office is only unprofitable because of regulation, and their volume is down because of electronic communications. Otherwise we would not be discussing it. As far as their services they are the most efficient reliable delivery service in the country, they're service is also cheaper then UPS, FED-EX, and DHL. Also like you said the USPS is no longer government run, they were segregated in the 1970's.

 

Now as far as the Ohio BMV, (Bureau of Motor Vehicles) the offices are not owned and controlled by the government. The are owned by contractors, and regulated by the government. They draw their income directly from the public, and are not subsidized by the government. A % goes to the the office for each transaction, and the rest to the treasurer as a state tax. It is a profitable money maker for agents that are smart and can control their overhead costs. It is guaranteed money the same as a Mc'Donald's franchise only better. You don't have to eat at Mc'Donald's, however you do have to pay for your license if you want to drive legally.

Edited by Furious1Auto
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FAIL!!!

 

Um the post office is efficient, and before electronic communications served this country well for hundreds of years. Second the BMV is owned by private contractors, these agents have to bid the work and it is very profitable to the store owners. You picked the wrong agencies to point out, my ex-wife worked for the BMV, and my girl's father works for the post office! You can argue DMV, BMV however different states have different acronyms for the same entity!

 

You need to find failing government programs if you want to drive your point home.

Here in the Commonwealth we have the DMV, run by the state government, dept of transportation, one of the most inefficient agencies in the state.......but thanks for helping make my point.....your state has outsourced (not government run) it and it looks like you're satisfied with it's performance......you may want to do a little more research on the USPS....they are running on a deficit....in the billions.....but the government (read taxpayers) will bail them out......FedX and UPS are much more efficient than the postal service.....the only reason they're not in the mail business is because they are not allowed by law....so the USPS has a monopoly on delivering your mail.....so they can charge whatever they want.....that's why they can't compete in the parcel packing business......ever see how fast a UPS/ FedX driver moves.....and then watch your postman....and I noticed that you didn't say anything about waste and fraud of Medicare ....interesting

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