J-150 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Before it can be argued whether or not angels have free will, it has to be proven that angels exist. I will bet anybody any amount of money that they can't prove the existence of angels. What is an angel? What does it look like? Is it a human with bird wings? It won't fly unless it has another means of propulsion. Are the wings just for decoration, or was the angel just something made up? Maybe they were drawn from a word of mouth description of extra-terrestrials using jet-packs. Whatever they were, they are gone now. they Star Trek style matter/anti-matter engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macattak1 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Before it can be argued whether or not angels have free will, it has to be proven that angels exist. I will bet anybody any amount of money that they can't prove the existence of angels. What is an angel? What does it look like? Is it a human with bird wings? It won't fly unless it has another means of propulsion. Are the wings just for decoration, or was the angel just something made up? Maybe they were drawn from a word of mouth description of extra-terrestrials using jet-packs. Whatever they were, they are gone now. Angels are just God's messengers. I do not know of anywhere that it actually states or implies they have wings. Peace and Blessings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Angels are just God's messengers. I do not know of anywhere that it actually states or implies they have wings. Peace and Blessings A cherub (Heb. כרוב, pl. כרובים, eng. trans kruv, pl. kruvim, lat. cherub[us], pl cherubi[m]) is a form of angel mentioned several times in the Bible. In modern English the word is usually used for what are strictly putti, baby or toddler angels in art. This article is concerned with the original sense of the word. Cherubs are described as winged beings. The biblical prophet Ezekiel describes the cherubim as a tetrad of living creatures, each having four faces: of a lion, an ox, an eagle, and a man. They are said to have the stature and hands of a man, the feet of a calf, and four wings. Two of the wings extended upward, meeting above and sustaining the throne of God; while the other two stretched downward and covered the creatures themselves. Exodus 25:17-22 17 You shall make a mercy seat of pure gold. Two and a half cubits shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth. 18 You shall make two cherubim of hammered gold. You shall make them at the two ends of the mercy seat. 19 Make one cherub at the one end, and one cherub at the other end. You shall make the cherubim on its two ends of one piece with the mercy seat. 20 The cherubim shall spread out their wings upward, covering the mercy seat with their wings, with their faces toward one another. The faces of the cherubim shall be toward the mercy seat. 21 You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the testimony (Ten Commandments of The Covenant) that I will give you. 22 There I (YHVH) will meet with you, and I will tell you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim (under their wings) which are on the ark of the testimony, all that I command you for the children of Israel (Physical seed of Abraham or Spiritual Seed of Abraham). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Free-will http://www.learnthebible.org/the-free-will-of-angels.html The Free Will of Angels However, no scripture declares that angels have no free will. From the fact of the fall of so many of them, they obviously have some form of self- etermination. That is, they have the freedom to remain in that holy estate into which they were placed by creation or to leave their first estate for a lower one. "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" (Jude 1:6). Clearly, they are not robots unable to do anything but obey God. http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/lucifer.html The Origin of Satan 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." ----------------------------------- This is not an earthly king, as the word "cherub" is only used in references to angels. ========================= How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: Satan wanted to be God. The Bible tells us in 2nd Corinthians 4:4 that Satan has become the "god of this world". And Revelation 20:10 tells us that he will be eternally punished for it. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. When Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, one third of all the angels were cast out with him. (Rev.12:4,9) --------------------------------------------- Revelation 12:4-9 (King James Version) "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. (5) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. (6)And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (7)And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, (8)And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. (9)And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Lucifer became Satan, and the fallen angels became Demons. ======== Bottom line is: Google can be your friend, and it's good to question and then look for answers. By questioning, we learn more and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Sooo... all in all, had their not been a battle in heaven, had not an angel, took it upon himself with his free will to think and act like he could become greater than God, we would not have sin on this Earth. This is what I took from the questions asked. And since time and place holds no meaning for God, God knew this would happen and he provided a plan to still redeem man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimdingman Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 That's quite a stretch; a theory based on an assumption based on a notion. The odds of it somehow being true would be between infinitesimally small to nil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimdingman Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Has anyone ever done a study on what kind of drugs were available during Biblical times? That could explain a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimdingman Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 God may have created Africa and Europe, but Glooscap created America. One religion can't lay claim to the whole world. America isn't even mentioned in the Bible, so Christianity has no business bringing its bullshit over here. The only thing that the priests brought to the Indians was smallpox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimdingman Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Sooo... all in all, had their not been a battle in heaven, had not an angel, took it upon himself with his free will to think and act like he could become greater than God, we would not have sin on this Earth. This is what I took from the questions asked. And since time and place holds no meaning for God, God knew this would happen and he provided a plan to still redeem man. There is no Heaven, so there was no battle in Heaven. If Heaven is a place with actual inhabitants, it would be a very complex society, not so simplistic as described by the Christian religion. It reminds me of cheesy space movies of the 1950s where someone lands on a planet, and immediately meets up with someone who is associated with the planet's "leader". In reality, you would most likely land in the middle of a rain forest or a desert, and not encounter any intelligent life for a very long time, if ever. The supernatural parts of the Bible are obviously made-up fantasies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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