2009 Escape/Mariner/Tribute

[FordBuyer]

has anyone, on the record, said the 3.5+6 doesn't fit in the Escape?

 

I don't think so. What is most likely is that Ford just doesn't have enough new V6's to go around which is tragic IMO. It is another nail pounded into Ford coffin. Here you have an engine that is more powerful, and gives better gas mileage, and is very limited to certain vehicles. The poor Fusion has to soldier on with V6 thats gets worse gas mileage than much bigger Taurus, and just a little better than FWD Edge. I'm really starting to think that the new Taurus and Focus are going to eat Fusion's lunch in 2008 model year. I hope I'm wrong, but if I were looking at new SEL Taurus with 3.5 liter V6 and 28 highway, SE Edge with same and 24 highway, and new Focus with 33 highway, I really wouldn't consider V6 Fusion with its 26 highway. Ford gets caught with its pants down again. I see big rebates coming on Fusion V6 in order to keep sales respectable until new engines arrive. Even the I4 Fusion got knocked down to 28 highway, and will lose sales to others. I'm sorry, but if I'm going to drive a 4 banger, I want over 30mpg on that sticker on window. If not, no sale from me. So for V6, only Edge or Taurus, and for 4 banger, only Focus is competitive.

[Pioneer]

I don't think so. What is most likely is that Ford just doesn't have enough new V6's to go around which is tragic IMO. It is another nail pounded into Ford coffin. Here you have an engine that is more powerful, and gives better gas mileage, and is very limited to certain vehicles. The poor Fusion has to soldier on with V6 thats gets worse gas mileage than much bigger Taurus, and just a little better than FWD Edge. I'm really starting to think that the new Taurus and Focus are going to eat Fusion's lunch in 2008 model year. I hope I'm wrong, but if I were looking at new SEL Taurus with 3.5 liter V6 and 28 highway, SE Edge with same and 24 highway, and new Focus with 33 highway, I really wouldn't consider V6 Fusion with its 26 highway. Ford gets caught with its pants down again. I see big rebates coming on Fusion V6 in order to keep sales respectable until new engines arrive. Even the I4 Fusion got knocked down to 28 highway, and will lose sales to others. I'm sorry, but if I'm going to drive a 4 banger, I want over 30mpg on that sticker on window. If not, no sale from me. So for V6, only Edge or Taurus, and for 4 banger, only Focus is competitive.

 

But...but...but... How dare you insult the almighty Fusion! Zan, silvr, and the rest of the "yes gang" will be along shortly to flog you!

[rmc523]

But...but...but... How dare you insult the almighty Fusion! Zan, silvr, and the rest of the "yes gang" will be along shortly to flog you!

[silvrsvt]

But...but...but... How dare you insult the almighty Fusion! Zan, silvr, and the rest of the "yes gang" will be along shortly to flog you!

 

 

Nope I'm just here to piss you off :P, but the current rumor is that 3.5L will be in the Fusion next Fall...

[waymondospiff]

The official line from Ford is that the 6 speed transmission won't fit, not the 3.5L.

I would be shocked if nothing would fit. I've never heard that the 4-speed was some kind of "paragon of packaging". Ford's stable of transmissions include the current 4-speed, the JATCO 5-speed (Fusion/Milan, used in the '03 Mazda6 V6), the Aisin 6-speed, and the JV 6-speed. Yet only the 4-speed fits? I don't buy it.

 

And heck, even if it were the only transmission to fit the 3.5L/4-speed is more competitive than the 3.0L/4-speed.

 

I don't think so. What is most likely is that Ford just doesn't have enough new V6's to go around which is tragic IMO.

And that's what I don't get. If Ford is converting 3.0L V6 production to 3.5L V6 production why not switch the lines sooner? What is so magical about the 3.5L that means it's production limited by anything other than Ford's desire not to build more of them?

 

And in what way will a 3.0L PIP be BETTER than more 3.5Ls? There's only one thing I can think of and that's fuel economy. But it has to be GREAT to justify additional spending on the 3.0L at this stage.

 

Toyota can put the same 3.5L in the RAV, Camry, Highlander, Avalon, ES, IS, GS, and RX; if Ford cannot match V6 production and allocation to match Toyota it is far more worrying than any temporary lag in Escape or Fusion sales.

 

Scott

[TomServo92]

I would be shocked if nothing would fit. I've never heard that the 4-speed was some kind of "paragon of packaging". Ford's stable of transmissions include the current 4-speed, the JATCO 5-speed (Fusion/Milan, used in the '03 Mazda6 V6), the Aisin 6-speed, and the JV 6-speed. Yet only the 4-speed fits? I don't buy it.

 

OK, I'm playing devil's advocate here. In this Ford press release, there is the following item:

 

Van Dyke Transmission Plant received $320 million to install a flexible machining line to assemble a fuel-efficient, high performance 6-speed, front-wheel drive transmission for the next generation Ford Escape.

 

If, as you say any of the current 6 speeds should fit, why would they invest this kind of money for an Escape specific transmission? Ford has made some seriously flawed decisions in the past but this doesn't make any sense to me at all if an existing transmission will fit. I'm not saying you're wrong but someone explain this to me.

[silvrsvt]

And heck, even if it were the only transmission to fit the 3.5L/4-speed is more competitive than the 3.0L/4-speed.

And that's what I don't get. If Ford is converting 3.0L V6 production to 3.5L V6 production why not switch the lines sooner? What is so magical about the 3.5L that means it's production limited by anything other than Ford's desire not to build more of them?

 

And in what way will a 3.0L PIP be BETTER than more 3.5Ls? There's only one thing I can think of and that's fuel economy. But it has to be GREAT to justify additional spending on the 3.0L at this stage.

 

Toyota can put the same 3.5L in the RAV, Camry, Highlander, Avalon, ES, IS, GS, and RX; if Ford cannot match V6 production and allocation to match Toyota it is far more worrying than any temporary lag in Escape or Fusion sales.

 

The whole 3.5L engine production scheme is wacked out...I could have sworn that I saw a posting Employee boards that one of the engine plants was tooled up for 3.5L production, but was temp mothballed till next year or 09 and the reason that Ford was doing this was to save money? As for the 3L PIP...sounds like it was an old program that Ford let get out of control and will let it run its course for a couple years then switch over to the 3.5L engine..

[Edstock]

When you consider that the Ford/Getrag hook-up for the power shift transmission would take til 2K8-9 to appear, any change from the 4-speed would be for 18-24 months only, then replaced by the Ford/Getrag.

 

While we'd like to see better, the 3.0 4-speed is no stone, and the extra sales of a 6-speed right now just doesn't justify the cost and the additional grief down the line of adding yet another orphan transmission for the service department to farkle with.

[waymondospiff]

OK, I'm playing devil's advocate here. In this Ford press release, there is the following item:

If, as you say any of the current 6 speeds should fit, why would they invest this kind of money for an Escape specific transmission? Ford has made some seriously flawed decisions in the past but this doesn't make any sense to me at all if an existing transmission will fit. I'm not saying you're wrong but someone explain this to me.

I'm not saying the current 6-speeds fit, I'd just be surprised if they didn't. It's an interesting press release you've found though Tom and it definitely is something I can't answer. I wonder, is it simply switching the line over to make JV 6-speeds and the volume is being dedicated to Kansas City? I don't know. But if it is for the next-generation Escape, as the press release states, wouldn't Ford just design a bigger "hole" for the JV 6-speed? Why design an all-new transmission for one product when you could make your existing product fit? Seems odd...good find Tom.

 

When you consider that the Ford/Getrag hook-up for the power shift transmission would take til 2K8-9 to appear, any change from the 4-speed would be for 18-24 months only, then replaced by the Ford/Getrag.

 

While we'd like to see better, the 3.0 4-speed is no stone, and the extra sales of a 6-speed right now just doesn't justify the cost and the additional grief down the line of adding yet another orphan transmission for the service department to farkle with.

The 3.0L/4-speed offers performance on par with the RAV4 & CRV 4-cylinder engines, yet swills fuel with the worst compact SUV's V6 engines. By inserting the 3.5L/6-speed combination not only would performance increase but so would fuel economy. And higher fuel economy gives Ford a higher average CAFE rating for the company. Not that I'm sure Ford needs to worry about selling all those F-150s & Expeditions any more, but hey, it can't hurt.

 

Scott

[TomServo92]

I'm not saying the current 6-speeds fit, I'd just be surprised if they didn't. It's an interesting press release you've found though Tom and it definitely is something I can't answer. I wonder, is it simply switching the line over to make JV 6-speeds and the volume is being dedicated to Kansas City? I don't know. But if it is for the next-generation Escape, as the press release states, wouldn't Ford just design a bigger "hole" for the JV 6-speed? Why design an all-new transmission for one product when you could make your existing product fit? Seems odd...good find Tom.

 

It begs the question: what do they mean by "the next generation Escape"? The press release is dated January 2007. So is the current Escape considered the next generation from the perspective of the press release? Or are they talking about the next complete re-design?

[old_fairmont_wagon]

From one article that I read on the subject, the current J/V 6AT doesn't fit PROPERLY in the escape's engine compartment. They referenced a suspension and AWD issue. It seems to me that the atrociously old Mazda 626 platform that the escape rides on is a problem in this regard. The front end design just isn't "right" for the 6AT J/V to fit properly and drive the rear wheels in the AWD setup. So, instead of offering a completely different AWD build combination, they left it as is. As for the Aisin unit, yes, its reasonably compact, its also more expensive per unit for Ford than the J/V 6AT and, ford also doesn't seem to purchase the AWD version of this tranny in any quantity.

 

I was NOT aware that the 5AT from the Fusion/Milan 4 bangers was the JATCO unit. I really hope that it isn't the same unit that Nissan used in the Altima from 03 to 07. That tranny seems to have quite a bit of parasitic drag (this statement was garnered from lots of hear-say and online forums). Could be one of the reasons that the I-4s don't do any better than they do on the old mpg ratings.

 

Frankly, what we know about the D30 PIP seems to come mostly from Blue II. He made several statements about it. One was that it may be intended for premium fuel. Another was that it had only modest power improvement goals (the hints seemed to be around 240 hp and 225 lbs of torque) and that it would be more effiicent than the existing D30. Another statement of his seemed to indicate that the line that was to get the D30 PIP upgrade was of a certain type that it would require the more extensive going over to produce the D35 instead of converting another line that was already going to be unused. At least, that's what I peiced together from several hints.

 

Lets look at it this way. The most recent line to get the D35 treatment was the old Essex v6 line. With the 4.2L V6 dying, and the 3.8/3.9L V6s long gone, this line was going to be idle anyway. There is no harm to production to convert a line that's unused anyway. From what little we know about the D30 PIP program, it is largely just a new Cylinder Head and its various components. For the purposes of the production line, the assembly changes will be trivial. If you could make an existing engine better while barely hurting production, wouldn't you go ahead and do it?

 

Also, think of where else the D30 is used. The Jaguar X-type still uses the D30. There are some updates coming for the X-type. This change may also find its way into that vehicle as well if it continues to use the D30 (which, it appears is the case). This engine will see some fairly extensive use in production vehicles before its determined to be redundant.

 

Personally, I'd like to see the D30 PIP replace the Vulcan 3.0L in the Ranger. That would let them completely shut down that entire line as nothing else still uses the Vulcan 3.0L. The economies of scale alone would likely make that worth it. And, the D30 PIP in the ranger would likely be much more fuel efficient than the old vulcan. But, that's just me.

 

Either way, I like the idea of the PIP D30. I think that it will work well for its intended uses. It will also give the Escape a much needed shot in the arm for the short term. I just wonder why its taking so long to get here.

[RichardJensen]

Another possibility:

 

Ford doesn't want the 3.5L in both the Escape and the Edge.

[Michael Reynolds]

But...but...but... How dare you insult the almighty Fusion! Zan, silvr, and the rest of the "yes gang" will be along shortly to flog you!

 

:rolleyes:

 

Give it up why don't you. If the damn thing was made in friggin Wayne (or any other US plant), you would be all over it dry humping the fuel door.

[rmc523]

Another possibility:

 

Ford doesn't want the 3.5L in both the Escape and the Edge.

Thats a possiblilty as well, but couldn't they detune the 3.5L somehow?

[igor]

Thats a possiblilty as well, but couldn't they detune the 3.5L somehow?

why bother ... the mass of that market is in the I4 segment .. see CR-V - Foprd should just upgrade the i4 and drop the V6

 

Igor

[RichardJensen]

They could, but they'd be adding 3.5L production in order to sell a detuned 3.5L which would also require engineering.....

 

Doesn't make a lot of sense if you're looking at things from a 4-5 year perspective.

[ANTAUS]

Is the I-4 enough for the Escape?... I mean, even with the 201HP V6, some of the horses seem to be asleep because it's acceleration numbers are worse than the previous version from the weight it gained in the process. From what I remember, it's mid 9's, and I think someone hit 10 Seconds on one test. I can't imagine what the 2.3L I-4 would be posting.

 

Now maybe the 2.3L TDI from the CX-7, might be a proper solution... Although it requires premium...

 

And please let's not suggest Ford produce a detuned version of anything...considering the competition and what they have, it needs to be "MORE-Tuned"...

Edited October 1, 2007 by ANTAUS

[silvrsvt]

Is the I-4 enough for the Escape?... I mean, even with the 201HP V6, some of the horses seem to be asleep because it's acceleration numbers are worse than the previous version from the weight it gained in the process. From what I remember, it's mid 9's, and I think someone hit 10 Seconds on one test. I can't imagine what the 2.3L I-4 would be posting.

 

I dunno, I remember reading when the Escape first launched that it was pulling in 15 second 1/4 mile times with the V6. It also weighs the same as the older model according to KBB.com

 

The new CR-V weighs about 100lbs more then the new Escape and only has a 4 cyc with 166HP/161ftlb of Torque.

 

If the Kuga is the next Escape, I'd assume its going to weigh the same (slightly smaller)...

 

The CX-7 is an overweight pig...it weighs in at a 100lbs less then the Edge and gets crappy MPG with its engine.

[igor]

one thing to keep in mind - the 2009 Escape will have the 2.5l with more ponies and MPG.

 

Igor

[silvrsvt]

one thing to keep in mind - the 2009 Escape will have the 2.5l with more ponies and MPG.

 

 

Is there any more facts about the 2.5L I4? I've heard several different stories about it and they seem to contract dictic any logic, such as its a Ford design since they didn't like the reliability of the Mazda design..specifically in TF applications.

 

I'd like to see 185 HP with good MPG out of it

[ANTAUS]

2.5L I-4? I'm expecting no less than 190HP if thats the case, and coupled with a 5-6 speed automatic as well should be good overall, if geared correctly...

[suv_guy_19]

2.5L I-4? I'm expecting no less than 190HP if thats the case, and coupled with a 5-6 speed automatic as well should be good overall, if geared correctly...

 

 

I think thats the problem with the Escape now, the transmission.

[kevinb120]

It begs the question: what do they mean by "the next generation Escape"? The press release is dated January 2007. So is the current Escape considered the next generation from the perspective of the press release? Or are they talking about the next complete re-design?

 

That's kinda the problem you get with random musings in random 'articles' by random 'writers'.

 

Ford is insistant on keeping the number of platforms and engines to a mind-numbing list of different combinations. Toyota has 4 platforms and 3 engines.

Edited October 1, 2007 by kevinb120

[NickF1011]

That's kinda the problem you get with random musings in random 'articles' by random 'writers'.

 

Ford is insistant on keeping the number of platforms and engines to a mind-numbing list of different combinations. Toyota has 4 platforms and 3 engines.

 

4 platforms? 3 engines? Mmmmkay. I'm pretty sure Toyota has more than 2 car and 2 truck platforms....especially globally.

 

Ford is cutting its number of global platforms dramatically over the next several years. There are also models Ford simply CANNOT build on a shared architecture. What exactly is going to share platforms with a Super Duty? Maybe an E-350.... Toyota doesn't even compete in that segment...so add a 5th one missing from their list for starters....

[Pioneer]

Give it up why don't you.

 

Nope. I'm havin too much fun. :party2: