RichardJensen Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...E/60116018/1041 'Some kind of price-up'"Knowing all we put into the car, plus increased raw material costs, we'll have to see some kind of price-up," says Jim Lentz, Toyota Division general manager. "We'd love to keep the pricing even, but I just don't see it." ... Rather than a stripped model that dealers advertise to lure people into the dealership, the base model will be a value leader. That may mean a higher base price, "but it's better to offer that than a car that no one wants," he says. A rather interesting way of spinning the decision to raise the base price of the most expensive car in the class. That didn't work for Ford back in '96. Think it will work for Toyota today? I doubt it. ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...E/60116018/1041A rather interesting way of spinning the decision to raise the base price of the most expensive car in the class. That didn't work for Ford back in '96. Think it will work for Toyota today? I doubt it. ... Agreed... with better "value for what you pay" coming from Hyundai and now the Fusion....Ford has a chance to jump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calypsocoral Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...E/60116018/1041A rather interesting way of spinning the decision to raise the base price of the most expensive car in the class. That didn't work for Ford back in '96. Think it will work for Toyota today? I doubt it. ... I'm not going to underestimate Toyota's design and engineering prowess. Add in the fact that the V6 is being upgraded to their dual-VVT 3.5L V6 (268 horses), and I am fairly confident that this car will outright trounce the competition, at least until the Fusion gets a 3.5L and AWD... Toyota is now a mainstream marque-- they can lure buyers with sheer content, instead of settling for being a "value" brand. Unlike Ford in the 1990's, Toyota keeps adding content, not mere re-skins. I have every confidence this car will have a stiffer unit-body, more agile suspension, we already know it is getting a major powertrain update, much better styling, and a sleeker interior. Toyota realized that consumers want sportier cars, and seem to have addressed that issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 I'm not going to underestimate Toyota's design and engineering prowess. That's not where the problem lies. The problem lies in asking your customers to step into an even more expensive car, even as your competition is still selling on price. The 1996 Taurus was so much better than the '95 Taurus in build quality, materials quality, and standard equipment, it wasn't even funny. But Ford demanded a price premium for those improvements, and that plus the questionable looks of the car torpedoed it. The situation is the same today. Recall that the Taurus did end '96 as the most popular car in America, but only due to extraordinary fleet sales. Toyota already sells fewer retail Camries than Honda does Accords. The arrival of the Sonata and Fusion promise to make retail sales even harder for Toyota, even as they increase the base price of their car. Toyota dealers have a terrible reputation to begin with. You get a potentially volatile mix when you combine a hefty price increase with aggressive, bullying, sales tactics (a Toyota specialty). Toyota's new Camry may well make sales for Ford and Hyundai as buyers increasingly decide that it's not worth the hassle. ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Unlike Ford in the 1990's, Toyota keeps adding content, not mere re-skins. I have every confidence this car will have a stiffer unit-body, more agile suspension, we already know it is getting a major powertrain update, much better styling, and a sleeker interior. The unit body is fundamentally identical. Because of that, I would venture to guess the suspension tune will be as mushy as it used to be as well. The powertrain and interior upgrades are top-notch though, agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 The unit body is fundamentally identical. Because of that, I would venture to guess the suspension tune will be as mushy as it used to be as well. The powertrain and interior upgrades are top-notch though, agreed. The Camry: It's Toyota's W-Body "When better Buicks are built, Toyota will build them" ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoorBob Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 I question your retail sales comment. The Camry is far ahead of the Accord these days, so unless it's going 25 percent or more fleet, I think the Camry is still the retail leader. If you look at the 07 specs, it looks to me like Toyota is going to stop fighting as hard for the I4 market. The new V6 is fairly incredible, but the I4 is underwhelming. Not terribly powerful or fuel efficient. I think they're shooting for Nissan/Pontiac buyers with the V6. I don't see much down side to Ford as it has positioned itself as a low-cost, high-content alternative, not a high-power competitor. We'll have to wait for sales figures to see how it shakes out. Bob That's not where the problem lies. The problem lies in asking your customers to step into an even more expensive car, even as your competition is still selling on price. The 1996 Taurus was so much better than the '95 Taurus in build quality, materials quality, and standard equipment, it wasn't even funny. But Ford demanded a price premium for those improvements, and that plus the questionable looks of the car torpedoed it. The situation is the same today. Recall that the Taurus did end '96 as the most popular car in America, but only due to extraordinary fleet sales. Toyota already sells fewer retail Camries than Honda does Accords. The arrival of the Sonata and Fusion promise to make retail sales even harder for Toyota, even as they increase the base price of their car. Toyota dealers have a terrible reputation to begin with. You get a potentially volatile mix when you combine a hefty price increase with aggressive, bullying, sales tactics (a Toyota specialty). Toyota's new Camry may well make sales for Ford and Hyundai as buyers increasingly decide that it's not worth the hassle. ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 I question your retail sales comment. The Camry is far ahead of the Accord these days, so unless it's going 25 percent or more fleet, I think the Camry is still the retail leader. Camry sells about 14% fleet, Accord is less than 2%. 14% of 430k is about 60k units. Enough to put the Camry back behind the Accord. ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fllcobra Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 http://money.cnn.com/2004/01/21/pf/autos/prices/ While I think it is a wise strategy for Ford to peg itself the value brand, I am glad it has a mix of vehicles that offer premium buyers a better mix of options and styles. It also has to be recognized that on the east and west coast, a significant number of vehicles are leased. It doesn't matter how much the starting price is of the Camry so long as the lease payments are in range of the "value" priced Fusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one2gamble Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Toyota's design and engineering prowess the day Toyota shows design prowess I will be amazed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricers-shaft-blueoval Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...E/60116018/1041A rather interesting way of spinning the decision to raise the base price of the most expensive car in the class. That didn't work for Ford back in '96. Think it will work for Toyota today? I doubt it. ... I have absolutely no doubt that it will work! i predict that the 2006 camry sales will be significantly better than the 2005. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 29, 2006 Author Share Posted January 29, 2006 I have absolutely no doubt that it will work! i predict that the 2006 camry sales will be significantly better than the 2005. Sure will Toyota just has to sell more to fleets. Toyota already about as many Camries to fleets as Ford does Crown Victorias. Maybe more. ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slider71 Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 "Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., announced manufacturer's suggested retail prices (MSRP) today for the all-new 2007 Camry sedan…All this standard equipment adds up to excellent value with a base MSRP of $18,270, a decrease of $175 or 0.9 percent, for four-cylinder manual models, while the four-cylinder automatic models will carry an MSRP of $19,320, an increase of $45 or 0.2 percent. The Camry LE adds to this package a long list of additional features, including a remote keyless entry, eight-way-adjustable power driver's seat, and for V-6 models dual exhaust with chrome tips. Four-cylinder models will carry a base MSRP of $19,450, a decrease of $95 or 0.5 percent, for models with manual transmission. Models with automatic transmissions will be positioned at $20,500, or an increase of $125 or 0.6 percent. LE V-6 models will have a base MSRP of $23,040, or an increase of $260 or 1.1 percent. SE four-cylinder models with a manual transmission will have an MSRP of $20,790, an increase of $415 or 2.0 percent. The MSRP for automatic transmission models will be $21,790, an increase of $585 or 2.8 percent. SE models with a V-6 will start at $24,315, an increase of $290 or 1.2 percent." Source : http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/...173.A10057.html Considering all the airbags are standard, as are ABS, the Camry is right there with the Fusion, if not a bit ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 "Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., announced manufacturer's suggested retail prices (MSRP) today for the all-new 2007 Camry sedan…All this standard equipment adds up to excellent value with a base MSRP of $18,270, a decrease of $175 or 0.9 percent, for four-cylinder manual models, while the four-cylinder automatic models will carry an MSRP of $19,320, an increase of $45 or 0.2 percent. The Camry LE adds to this package a long list of additional features, including a remote keyless entry, eight-way-adjustable power driver's seat, and for V-6 models dual exhaust with chrome tips. Four-cylinder models will carry a base MSRP of $19,450, a decrease of $95 or 0.5 percent, for models with manual transmission. Models with automatic transmissions will be positioned at $20,500, or an increase of $125 or 0.6 percent. LE V-6 models will have a base MSRP of $23,040, or an increase of $260 or 1.1 percent. SE four-cylinder models with a manual transmission will have an MSRP of $20,790, an increase of $415 or 2.0 percent. The MSRP for automatic transmission models will be $21,790, an increase of $585 or 2.8 percent. SE models with a V-6 will start at $24,315, an increase of $290 or 1.2 percent."Source : http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/...173.A10057.html Considering all the airbags are standard, as are ABS, the Camry is right there with the Fusion, if not a bit ahead. $18,985 is what a Fusion with ABS and Side airbags would cost so the Camry is a little less, but the Fusion has other things std (remote entry) So they are pretty close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 25, 2006 Author Share Posted February 25, 2006 $18,985 is what a Fusion with ABS and Side airbags would cost so the Camry is a little less, but the Fusion has other things std (remote entry) So they are pretty close. Toyota's raising the prices more on their higher priced models (as a percentage)--I wonder how well this will work. ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc-o Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 "Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., announced manufacturer's suggested retail prices (MSRP) today for the all-new 2007 Camry sedan…All this standard equipment adds up to excellent value with a base MSRP of $18,270, a decrease of $175 or 0.9 percent, for four-cylinder manual models, while the four-cylinder automatic models will carry an MSRP of $19,320, an increase of $45 or 0.2 percent. The Camry LE adds to this package a long list of additional features, including a remote keyless entry, eight-way-adjustable power driver's seat, and for V-6 models dual exhaust with chrome tips. Four-cylinder models will carry a base MSRP of $19,450, a decrease of $95 or 0.5 percent, for models with manual transmission. Models with automatic transmissions will be positioned at $20,500, or an increase of $125 or 0.6 percent. LE V-6 models will have a base MSRP of $23,040, or an increase of $260 or 1.1 percent. SE four-cylinder models with a manual transmission will have an MSRP of $20,790, an increase of $415 or 2.0 percent. The MSRP for automatic transmission models will be $21,790, an increase of $585 or 2.8 percent. SE models with a V-6 will start at $24,315, an increase of $290 or 1.2 percent."Source : http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/...173.A10057.html Considering all the airbags are standard, as are ABS, the Camry is right there with the Fusion, if not a bit ahead. Yeah i just read this too... If the next model is priced similarly to the current one, customers aren't going to leave. At least not any more than they have been since the Fusion has been out. I wouldn't say the car is pricing itself out of its market as of yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bec5150 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Again, you got to look at the reason a person went from a Taurus to a Camry years ago in the first place. If that experience involved crappy dealer service or a premature mechanical failure that Ford chose not to take care of, I doubt if a person is going to go "back to Ford" because of a price difference. If Toyota has treated them right in the past, they will most likely gladly pay the higher price. Now if the Fusion proves to be a trouble free 150,000 mile car and the dealer experience improves, then we can start making apple to apple comparisons again. Unti then, the customer is going to make the assumption, correct or incorrectly, that they are getting more for their money. This is because at some point in the past, with a Toyota, they simply were. Ok, flame me. I am prepared to take it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc-o Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Again, you got to look at the reason a person went from a Taurus to a Camry years ago in the first place. If that experience involved crappy dealer service or a premature mechanical failure that Ford chose not to take care of, I doubt if a person is going to go "back to Ford" because of a price difference. If Toyota has treated them right in the past, they will most likely gladly pay the higher price. Now if the Fusion proves to be a trouble free 150,000 mile car and the dealer experience improves, then we can start making apple to apple comparisons again. Unti then, the customer is going to make the assumption, correct or incorrectly, that they are getting more for their money. This is because at some point in the past, with a Toyota, they simply were. Ok, flame me. I am prepared to take it. I'll give you at least one post with a thumbs up :happy feet: the key is of course the assumption made "correctly or incorrectly". unfortunately, no one *really* knows for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinb120 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Isn't there an article around saying that the new V6 costs about half of what the old one did at Toyota? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 25, 2006 Author Share Posted February 25, 2006 If Toyota has treated them right in the past, they will most likely gladly pay the higher price. Toyota has notoriously poor dealers. Sales AND Service. Not all Japanese car companies are created equal. You can say what you want about Toyotas being more reliable, and I won't argue, as a general rule they have been. But, if you are an average person, you will, on average, be treated better at a dealership with the Blue Oval out front. This has been the case for many moons. You have numerous times compared the service you've received for your CRV with the service you've received for your Ranger (or other Fords), and your experience coincides pretty well with the typical buyer (I'd recommend taking your Ranger to be serviced at an LM franchise). Don't, however, make the mistake of assuming that Toyota's success has been built on the same sturdy foundation of good customer service that Honda's success has. In fact, Toyota's high pressure sales tactics and "blame the victim" service departments are notorious. Toyota's success has been IN SPITE OF their dealership network, not because of it. It's one of the reasons why I believe that Toyota could see permanently alienated buyers when it becomes clear that they're not selling anything that you can't get elsewhere with better service. ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bec5150 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 I never said Toyota IS more reliable, I just said they "were." Just like the Fusion should prove to be much better in every way than the Taurus. But there are quite a few people from years ago, beit transmissions, engines, or something else, that had them leaving the Ford lot saying "It will be a cold day in hell" and going to buy a Toyota. The "jist" of this thread is that it is unrealistic to think these same people are going to go "What, 500 bucks more, screw that, where's that Ford dealer that did me wrong 10 years ago?" As far as the Toyota dealer and service being substandard, if that is the case, then Ford should have nothing to worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sixcav Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 I have to go with Richard on this one. My personal experience at a Toyota service department was horrible. So much so that I'll never buy another Toyota. They were inept, and had a bad attitude to boot. For instance. I took my Tacoma in because when I would turn to the right, about half the time, the break light would come on for just a moment. I wasn't sure what was going on. I checked the break fluid and it was at a normal level. So I took it into my Toyota dealer. They told me I just needed to have the breaks cleaned and that would take care of it. It was $40.00 of course. When I picked up the truck, I drove it off the lot, turned right, and the damn break light came on! So just to see what would happen I added just a touch of break fluid. That was it, problem solved. What was happening was that since the Tacoma PreRunner sits up high on an offroad suspension when I would turn to the right sometimes the fluid level would of course dip down as it is pulled to one side of the master cylinder by gravity. It would just barely hit the sensor and set it off. So I paid $40.00 for a repair job I didn't need and they didn't even correct the problem that did exist. This is just one of about 10 or so such encounters I had with that service department. They were just really bad and had a crappy attitude. I'll never buy anything from them again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 26, 2006 Author Share Posted February 26, 2006 As far as the Toyota dealer and service being substandard, if that is the case, then Ford should have nothing to worry about. As long as they get their product in line. All other things being equal, Toyota's dealerships are a factor that will weigh heavily against them. And like Ford and GM have already learned, it is difficult to wean bad dealers of their worst habits. ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bec5150 Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 (edited) I think a lot of the dealer problem is what I like to call the "American attitude" for lack of a better term. It's what we had when the American car companies made junk in the 70's and 80's. It's what we still have when we go to a place to eat and get cold food served by an even colder waitress. It's what you still get from some (not all) American car dealers. Now locally, we have a Toyota dealer that is on the same "super-lot" as a Dodge and GM dealer, all owned by the same guy. This guy has sold GM and Dodge for decades. Guess what kind of service you get? You guessed it, the same kind you get for the other two American dealers, actually, it may be worse since you bought a "Jap Car" (racial slur used for effect, no offense intended). I run into it with combinded "Harley/Honda dealers" as well. I think it was also the reason for poor dealer ratings for some of the "start up" car manufacturers in the US as well, like Hyundai and Kia when they tried to get their foot in the door of our market. In an effort to get ANYTHING to sell, some of these domestic dealers started selling Kia, Hyundai, Daywoo, Suzuki, and whatever else they could get their hands on. But if you go to a stand alone lot that is "newer", be it domestic or foreign car line, the new customer service systems work for the most part. Seems some of these old dealers try to go "old school" with their customer service regardless of what the manufacture tries to implement. Now this is just my opinion, no hard facts or proof. But in my experience, this is the way it has worked for me. Edited February 26, 2006 by bec5150 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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